Does it “silence a warning” or change the parameters that cause the warning? Isn’t there a very big difference between the two?


Is the steep approach mode required for London City? It just silences a warning which you can ignore just like the ones you hear going off fro KDXR videos I linked to.

Mike C.

Reference?

Mike C.

What are the ceiling/vis minimums for london citys 5.5 degree approach?

Appears to depend on your MAP climb gradient and type.

Lowest is BAE 146 at 460 ft (441 ft AGL).

http://www.bvartcc.com/charts/EGLC/IAP/ ... -02-10.pdf

Not sure there are explicit visibility minima, seems like you reach DH and either see or don't see and that's the requirement. You will be pretty close to the runway, so about 3/4 mile at worst to see the threshold (630 MSL, 611 ft AGL).

Mike C.

Somehow this turned into an attempt to justify that a citation can fly a descent steeper than 3 deg. I don’t see that this was ever in question. The discussion started with the idea that someone can take their experience with model airplanes and ultralights, and it ports directly to flying a jet on an unstabilized “dive for the threshold” approach and it’s all good.

I wonder if Citations need any special mod.

Mike C.

Model airplanes are a lot harder. Flying an RC helicopter without gyros is about 10 times more difficult then flying full scale helicopters. Flying jet RC is a ton harder then full scale. Flying ultralights are a lot more difficult then heavier planes. My RC experience flying Acro helped a lot flying full scale acro. I don’t have a LOA to fly jets but have flown a few and I think it all helps.

CJ2 landing extremely short! No wasted pavement!

Advance to 2:15 to see landing:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/5E1KOJvFe7s[/youtube]

Mike C.

While studying runway markings, I discovered that the touchdown markers are NOT at 1000 ft down the runway. The runway painting standard calls for them to start at 1020 feet from the threshold and end 1170 feet from the threshold (150 feet long).

This means the center of the touch down markers is 1095 feet from the runway threshold. If you touch down in the middle of the touch down marker, then ~1100 feet of runway has already passed under your wheels.

I measured KSBS and their runway conforms to that marking standard.

What this means is that if you use a 3 degree approach angle and visually aim for the touch down marker center, you will cross the threshold at slightly over 57 feet high. This does not accounting for the pilot's eye height versus main gear height, though, so perhaps not too far from 50 feet in reality.

Consider runway 32 at KSBS. The runway is 4452 feet long, but with displaced threshold, there is 3852 feet landing distance available. If you touchdown at the touch down marker center point, you are 1095 feet past the threshold. Adding it up, 1695 feet of runway is unused behind you and 2,757 feet of runway is ahead of you. You will try to stop in 62% of the runway surface.

If, say, you were to touchdown at the threshold, then you'd have 3852 feet of runway ahead of you, 87% of the runway to stop in, with 600 feet behind you, the lead in to the displaced threshold. That is a sizable gain in runway surface.

Mike C.

I'm confused by the runway distance numbers at KSBS.

The AFD says:

Runway 14: TORA 4452, TODA 4452, ASDA 3852, LDA 3852
Runway 32: TORA 4452, TODA 4452, ASDA 4452, LDA 3852

Runway 32 has a displaced threshold of 600 ft, so the numbers make sense for runway 32, you have full length for TORA, TODA, and ASDA, and LDA is 600 ft short for the displace threshold.

But the numbers for runway 14 don't make sense given it has no displaced threshold. Why is ASDA 600 ft short? You have 4452 ft of runway to accelerate and stop in. Further, why is LDA 600 ft short? Can't you slow down in the displaced threshold area of runway 32?

So, if this is real, why is it so, or is it a typo?

Acronym decoder:

TORA - takeoff run available
TODA - takeoff distance available
ASDA - accelerate stop distance available
LDA - landing distance available

Mike C.

Anyone know the reason for the displaced threshold at SBS?

I grew up flying RC. I could fly a full-scale plane from the first flight.

Helis though... I could hover my Raptor heli inverted and facing me (everything backward and upside down). After my one ride in a Hummingbird at Osh I walked away thinking I’d need at least an hour to get used to hovering. I thought it would be a snap after my RC but it wasn’t for me.

Overall - RC gives you a tremendous advantage and feel for the plane and its limits. I had not considered this much. You learn from crashes too!

20 pages later you say you're confused and don't understand the basic elements of runway analysis, markings and performance planning and how these numbers are derived in general and/or specifically at KSBS which is what got all of this started in the first place?

So you've been arguing, taunting and chaffing at other BT members but nonetheless know little about you're talking about? Go take a runway analysis course, educate yourself and then argue about what proper planning and SOPs look like and should be. If you have to ask how the LDA, ASDA and TODA were determined, you need to read up a little.

Wow. Was away on vacation for this doozy of a thread. Every personality BT has showed up. Even JC and his PC12 .

Most all of you guys are much better pilots than me. I figured out some time ago that being right or capable 99.9% of the time left a total failure 1/1000 attempts. More than I want to negotiate. You never know when that 1/1000 has arrived either.

That said, the guy with the “asking a bunch of strangers on the internet “ was spot on. If I don’t feel comfortable with the scenario, if I don’t know the plane well enough for the conditions, it’s a no go, and not based on a bunch of opinions. That’s flying. MT did the right thing:he called ahead, got his own position report, and went. And easily.

However when 1000’s Of hours of jet time tell you to cross the threshold where you are supposed to and a couple other suggest otherwise? And ones flying a TP which is like a whole other beast? Come on. It’s almost embarrassing.

Flying is relatively easy when you create certain patterns to follow. Fly a consistent pattern, Fly a stabilized approach (in anything); when you break those patterns the gotchas come into play. Gear up, failure to allow for wind shear, all sorts of stuff.