I have owned two and I personally know of two owners who were grounded 6 to 10 months waiting on intercoolers and windshields. So it isn't FUD as you say. Its real ... I have first hand knowledge. Don't be obtuse.

Thanks Don, I missed his post, I almost went a whole day without being called obtuse!

The precooler problem was not fun, I learned TOO much about the process of making them, the back and forth between Oklahoma - Israel - Kansas was insane. Hopefully, they have it all worked out.

One thing you mentioned is, they didn’t have the inventory based on prior orders, this is an area in aviation that needs some work. It’s inexcusable, all of these manufacturers could easily predict what parts inventory they’re going to need, they’re just not focused on it.

Corrected. Added 560 flight plan.


Robert T

Identical results?

Seems like you didn't change the model between screen shots.

The other thing is that is that it is reasonable to fly the V higher. You have more power and climb rate to get there. Fuel usage goes down being higher.

I also notice the Ultra model on FltPlan.com over estimates my fuel usage by about 5% or so. I have no idea what the SII model correction factor is, if any.

Mike C.

Chip on the inventory, being in the car business I am very familiar with predictive stock analysis. If not for the manufacturer issue there would have been no problem. No manufacturer or dealer is going to stock a year supply “just in case” the manufacturer goes out of business. That would be a strategy to financial failure. Textron generally stocks quite deep in their inventory. In fact a smaller company with less cash would have a shorter days supply.

The counter effect is the monopoly pricing. I don’t think that’s exclusive to Textron.

Note that 550 and S550 are very different airplanes. It wasn't clear which model you were using.

I ran the SII and Ultra models for today, KEHR to KVGT, FL400:

Ultra MCT: 4:05, 5496 lbs
SII MCT: 4:24, 4920 lbs
Ultra LRC: 4:34, 4505 lbs

There was no SII LRC model.

The basic takeaway is that if you slow down the Ultra to SII speeds, you get similar fuel usage and times. That is, if I run just a bit more than LRC, I'll make up the 10 minute difference, and the fuel usage will be similar, maybe even a touch less.

In reality, the Ultra model is more fuel than my V uses, so I beat the planner on fuel pretty consistently. If the SII model is correct, then maybe I am doing a bit better due to climbing to altitude faster.

Also, the V/Ultra will typically fly higher which helps.

Buying an SII to save fuel over a V isn't indicated in the numbers. Just because the V has more power doesn't mean you have to use it, but you have it if you need/want it.

Mike C.

That is impressive. Looks to be about 1,000' from touchdown to taxi speed.

I assume you were light?

Note that 550 and S550 are very different airplanes. It wasn't clear which model you were using.

I ran the SII and Ultra models for today, KEHR to KVGT, FL400:

Ultra MCT: 4:05, 5496 lbs
SII MCT: 4:24, 4920 lbs
Ultra LRC: 4:34, 4505 lbs

There was no SII LRC model.

The basic takeaway is that if you slow down the Ultra to SII speeds, you get similar fuel usage and times. That is, if I run just a bit more than LRC, I'll make up the 10 minute difference, and the fuel usage will be similar, maybe even a touch less.

In reality, the Ultra model is more fuel than my V uses, so I beat the planner on fuel pretty consistently. If the SII model is correct, then maybe I am doing a bit better due to climbing to altitude faster.

Also, the V/Ultra will typically fly higher which helps.

Buying an SII to save fuel over a V isn't indicated in the numbers. Just because the V has more power doesn't mean you have to use it, but you have it if you need/want it.

Mike C.

About right. I really wasn't very aggressive on the brakes, either. By the time I had the reversers out, I was too slow to go into power reverse, so they didn't help all that much (but still good to stop residual thrust).


Not greatly so, about 12,000 lbs. That's 2000 lbs fuel and 800 lbs cabin load.

There was a 10 knot wind down the runway, which is why I selected the "short" one, 3400 ft. The turn off is 1600 ft down a 3400 ft runway, so the ground roll was about 1000-1100 ft to full stop if I had taken it to zero speed.

When I switched from MU2 to Citation V, I expected to lose runway capability. The most surprising thing is that I really didn't. The MU2 can land shorter, but the Citation can takeoff shorter, so the effective runway length I need is about the same.

The only area I did lose capability was turf runways. MU2 yes, Citation no (if not equipped with gravel kit).

Mike C.

This is the primary reason I went with the 441. Interesting.

Recently on CJP, it was reported that a CJ2 in prebuy at Wichita needs precoolers, none to be had. Issue said to affect the entire 525 fleet.

It is not a given that newer means parts are more readily available. It sometimes means the opposite. There are a number of recent examples of this.

If you are a prospective legacy Citation owner who is being told to avoid them due to parts issues, you are being ill advised.

Mike C.

Recently on CJP, it was reported that a CJ2 in prebuy at Wichita needs precoolers, none to be had. Issue said to affect the entire 525 fleet.

It is not a given that newer means parts are more readily available. It sometimes means the opposite. There are a number of recent examples of this.

If you are a prospective legacy Citation owner who is being told to avoid them due to parts issues, you are being ill advised.

Mike C.

Just doing my once weekly checkin to verify

a) inventory levels are no longer critically low
b) Chip and Mike are still going mano-e-mano

Verified both, see y'all in a week.

Ummm, if I buy and fly my own airplane wouldn’t that make me an OPERATOR? In the eyes of the FAA it certainly does. I don’t understand your semantics. Do you have to be a large Fortune 500 flight department? A charter service? How many airplanes make you an “operator”?

Ummm, if I buy and fly my own airplane wouldn’t that make me an OPERATOR? In the eyes of the FAA it certainly does. I don’t understand your semantics. Do you have to be a large Fortune 500 flight department? A charter service? How many airplanes make you an “operator”?