Had some of the best catfish in one of those casinos buffet there in tunica.

Don't give them ideas!

I don’t think it is either, most owners of multi-million dollar aircraft are pretty private, I don’t see anyone saying I paid X for my airplane either.

I’m not sure anyone wants to offer up info that will likely get them ridiculed no matter if they were taken to the cleaners or not. I have the invoices for the last two engines we ran through Standard, but because of client confidentiality I’m not sharing them. Plus, it doesn’t actually help you any. Especially those tired second run -60A’s.

How many people on here have done HSI or overhauls on first run big Pratts anyway? I only know of two!

The things that can be wrong with these engines are so varied and the cost of parts so specific, the details really are immaterial. Like I told Adam, I can get the average of the last three StandardAero did and that provides an idea what to expect. That’s about as good as it gets.

If you have a good shop do a borescope now, they can prepare you for what it will be like when they do the HSI, they can’t tell everything, but they can at least check the vane rings for converging cracks and the rest of the hot for damage.

You said it yourself, rapid turnover, minimizing dead money tied up in inventory. And their existing inventory of all Brand D engines would lose value if word got out that cheaper competing planes on the market with Brand C engines were just as good. That's no doubt why Covington being a DOF escaped their notice for ten years! Yet brokers claim to keep an eagle eye on their field. Makes one wonder what other things they are telling people that haven't been true for a decade.

Me, and I emailed my invoice (not quote) to Adam. I own a PC12.
What I have tried to explain to Adam and everyone else is that my 6,134.45 invoice was for a Hot Section Inspection for a p67p and some of the componentry/milling that is associated with such inspection.

I flew my airplane to Covington. I think that's safer, more expedient, and fewer cooks in the kitchen so to speak. It comes with a cost of fuel, air time, and my time.

Every single post by every single person not named Penman is that they watch HSI/Overhauls like a hawk and employee a third part person to watch over the predatory 'fixin' by the other 'shops'.

What I'm trying to get people to understand is not what I was charged it's what I was NOT CHARGED. My engine was perfect save for a few items that need to be milled to within 'x thousand mm'. I was incredibly lucky and fortunate, no denying that.
What did not happen on my HSI, was
- replacing parts that did not need to be replaced to bump up the tab
- hiring a third party to represent me to avoid being fleeced
- enjoying the HSI process rather than dreading it
- having some broker tell me that my airplane is worth less because an approved shop did the work, but no one knows them, so therefore it's crappy.

I thought that king airs did not worry about engine quality because they had two of them and they fly the engine that just quit to Dallas to get it fixed.

PC12 owners, given that they only have one engine, fly that special engine to Covington, an approved shop, that does great work at good rates and treats their customers and their engines with the respect they deserve. They don't give a rats ass about broker opinions because their airplanes always fetch top dollar and have great deprecation rates.

Anyone here sensing a theme?

I just showed my TBM owner buddy this thread. He needs a HSI in less than 200 hours, Thanks penman. I bet Covington gets more than one phone call from owner pilots because of your testimonial.

This has been a great thread. I've learned from it.

But if I find out Penman is getting a kickback, then . . .

Is there a Covington in the TPE331 world?

You asked a question, I am trying to answer it. I wasn't going to go back through all these pages to see what engine it is. To take an educated guess at what an HSI event might cost I needed to know what engine and HOW MANY HOURS... I could have asked first Hot or second, which is really what I'm asking. I had to ask the second question anyway, so it was just as easy to ask both.

The $30k isn't to remove and ship the engine, it is to remove it, have the Hot Section Inspection done and reinstall it. I said that earlier but jeez matey, you really don't listen!



To answer your question every way possible, I'll say it this way. If it's the first hot and you don't have anything major to replace, I would budget $25k - $50k if you need CT Vane ring or blades it's going to be more.

If it's the second run HSI I would budget $100k, but again if you start replacing CT blades it will be more. Then of course there's combustion liners, large and small exit ducts... all kinds of things that big Pratts like to eat.

If Penman got by for $6500 that is almost unheard of.

Yeah, I would say Hancock Enterprises qualifies. Bob Hancock sits on so many parts that you can be pretty sure you can find a solution that will avoid having to buy new. Now, I have not overhauled or hot sectioned with him, but his quotes on used rotables and replacing those come in at a lot less than other's do. I will probably ferry mine to him to replace my 3rd wheel eventually if times improve.

There are a few other smaller mom-and-pop shops that also overhaul (with emphasis on overhauling and not replacing).

That's a good datapoint. What I'd like to ascertain is what all Pratt did beyond "eyeballs on it and bolt her back up".

Isn't that the definition of a Hot Section Inspection? Experienced eyeballs to tell you what, if any, work needs to be done. And if those experienced eyeballs and the manufacturer's specs say no extra work is called for, you shouldn't need to have hired a watchdog to keep the shop from doing it anyway. The fact that the job of watchdog exists, and has many happy and repeat customers, testifies that the name shops' add-ons aren't long-run cost-effective to the owners. If they were, owners wouldn't be strongly advised to hire watchdogs to prevent them.

It's not just the name brand engine shops that need a watchdog, it's any engine shop, I really believe in Reagan's quip... "trust but verify" there's simply too much money involved and it's not just if something needs to be replaced, that's fairly consistent, if it does need to be replaced, can it be repaired? If not, can it be replaced with overhaul exchange vs new.

These parts are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, it just doesn't cost that much to bring in oversight. We do the same thing on big airplane maintenance events, the scope of the work becomes such that it makes sense to hire a mechanic to oversee it.

Paul Sneden does the same thing for King Air maintenance. His knowledge and experience helps the process move smoothly and he saves his clients money as they go.

I spent some time this week on the phone with some engine friends, including Paul Jones, a couple of others whose name you probably wouldn't know, and Phil Borden from StandardAero. These guys have been tremendous resources for me in the engine world for the last couple of decades.

I'm going to throw out some info and not attribute to anyone, if someone wants details call me or I can get you in contact with an expert.

This is NOT a Covington vs. Standard Aero or a Covington vs. anyone else post, Phil and I go way back to the Vector days, so they are my preferred engine shop. I haven't heard anything this week that would change that, and that includes my conversation with Paul.

Here's what I learned about the PT6A-67B/P

The HSI expense varies, greatly. It could be next to nothing or expensive. I would budget $40k - $45k to be on the safe side, if you get out for $15k or in Penman's case $6500 that is great, but budget the bucks and enjoy the X you can buy if you slip out unscathed.

When it comes to overhaul, the -67B/P are expensive, you can expect first run overhauls to exceed $400k. One issue, that is unique to -67B/P is PT blades, they are limited to 5000 hours... not cycles. That means that at overhaul you'll either have to replace them and throw away 1500 hours or do them at 1500 TSOH... which probably means doing the hot early and then running it 2000 hrs to overhaul.

List price on the PT blades is $100k and right now Pratt has a campaign on them for 50% off.

By the way, these are the same PT blades that are in the -67A's on King Airs... no 5000 hour limit, Pratt logic is that the Pilatus only has one engine so a PT blade failure would be a problem.

My advice, budget $45k for HSI and $450k for Overhaul (with PT blades) and I would replace those life limited PT blades at overhaul because the extra labor and off schedule event isn't worth it, plus Pratt could end the campaign and the price of the blades could go back to $100k

Hope this helps!

"Let's see, what number can we use for PT blade life that is A) seemingly long life, but B) isn't really due to OH/HSI timing so we get the maximum money?"

We all know that 5250 hours is within the uncertainty of the process. Obviously they let King Airs go that long.


For all those who have died in King Air engine failures, so what.

Mike C.