Mike, how do you interpret this part of the regs for the non-typed SIC:


If you have an SPE to fly the V, but the plane itself is not SP, is it as simple as the SIC not being able to log the hours but still fly as SIC? (I can't remember if you received your CFI, which probably would make it all a lot easier to navigate). And was there anything special you needed to do with insurance for occasionally flying with a SIC? Our safety pilot is also a CFI but I haven't received a SIC but was thinking about doing it as something fun to do at some point. I don't really care about logging the hours, just learning more.

Chip-

I understand the SIC for FAA requirement but what about insurance.

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, performed and logged pilot time in the type of aircraft or in a flight simulator that represents the type of aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested, which includes—

(i) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop as the sole manipulator of the flight controls;

(ii) Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command; and

(iii) Crew resource management training.

The above means the SIC candidate, in addition to the knowledge aspects of 61.55(b)(1), has to perform 3 takeoffs and landings, maneuver with an engine out, and discuss CRM. Under 61.55(g) and (h), they can do that in day conditions with no passengers even if they are not typed. They can then log that time as pilot time, but not PIC time.


They can log the time, just not as PIC since they aren't typed.


No. My policy doesn't say anything about SIC. The insurance is aware I fly it single pilot sometimes which concerns them far more than when you fly crew.


If you are PP-AMEL-IA or better, meet the requirements under 61.55(b), then you are a legal SIC and you can get an SIC type rating under 61.55(d).

I signed off an SIC type rating for one of my SIC folks. I'm not a CFI.

Once the SIC has the SIC type rating, then they can log the time as PIC under the "sole manipulator" rules. They are then also legal to serve as SIC outside US domestic airspace.

Getting qualified as an SIC is pretty easy.

Mike C.

I haven't found anything in my insurance that prevents me from flying with an FAA qualified SIC.

It would be weird if the insurance would prefer I fly single pilot.

Mike C.

Thanks Mike, that's about how I took it as well, except for the part about being able to log it and being able to log PIC time too (once SIC typed, correct)? That part wasn't clear to me. Any type rated PIC can sign off on a SIC once all items have been accomplished? Do you sign it with your Certificate number?

In terms of insurance I was thinking about it from the instructing side and not necessarily if they'd have a problem flying with a SIC without some sort of CRM training or something, but did you need to do anything insurance wise for in aircraft training? We have in our insurance the ability to use Sim training or training in aircraft with a pre-approved instructor which also covers in aircraft lesson giving (not just receiving). But that was also with the knowledge that our pilot was a CFI so training someone else wasn't a big leap for them.

Thanks again,

Chip-

Yes, that falls under 61.51(e)(1)(i) which is the sole manipulator clause for a plane in which you are rated. An SIC type rating is a rating, so when you fly as SIC, you can log PIC. Such is the weirdness of FAA rules.


Yes.


Yes, I think so.

See attached legal opinion which lays it out more directly. You do not have to be a CFI to sign someone off for a 61.55(d) SIC type rating. There is no practical test for that rating.


For my SIC folks, they fly as "pilot rated passengers" and I let them manipulate the controls. When they are reasonably comfortable, then we progress to takeoffs and landings. Then some engine out maneuvers. Then that covers the flight experience parts of 61.55(b).

I've even let a pre solo student pilot takeoff my jet. I did everything but the yoke (throttles, rudders, and I had my hand on the yoke). No rule against that as far as I know (which BTW is unlike the MU2 which has a specific rule about that). It was someone I trust and they did fine. The Citation is really not difficult to fly.

Here is a little quirk of the rules, a regulatory gap that I exploit.

When I fly, I am flying legally as single pilot under my SPE. The SIC is technically always a pilot rated passenger with no legal requirements since they are not a required crew member.

But they can still log the time as SIC time when occupying a seat, and PIC time when manipulating the controls. How, do you ask? Check out 61.51(f)(1):

A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of § 61.55, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate;

If the right seater is qualified under 61.55, and my jet is still a part 25 crew airplane, they can log SIC time even though they are not a required crewmember because I hold an SPE. This is a fine little gap in the regulations I can exploit. Now if the regulation had been shortened to "occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot", that is left off the aircraft type certificate part, then this little gap would not exist. But it does exist.

So technically, I am still flying single pilot, but they are still able to log it. Funny, huh?

Mike C.

Mike, let me rephrase the question. If you did not have the SPE, and wanted to fly the V with a non-type rated pilot how would insurance for Part 91 look at that. In lieu of your LOA does your insurance require two type rated pilots? I am thinking of a new 550 owner who might not have the SPE. Does he need another type rated pilot for insurance?

I guess the answer would be no different in my Mustang. If I did not have a single pilot rating the FAA would allow me to use the same SIC process you outlined, but does my insurance allow it? I would have to read the policy.

Not sure.

My guess would be insurance only cares about the PIC, so any legal SIC would be allowed. I'll ask my agent and see what they say.

In my case, my right seater is a passenger legally on all flights.


It doesn't say.

My policy only talks about the "pilot operating the aircraft". No mention of PIC, SIC, two pilots, etc. I could argue they mean the PIC, but it is not clearly spelled out.


FAA legally, the new pilot can have a crew type rating (CE-500) and then find any qualified SIC to fill the right seat.

What the insurance requires I do not know.

My guess would be the insurance wants a mentor pilot who is typed for some period of time. They either need to meet the open pilot warranty (OPW), or they need to be explicitly named and have good qualifications. In my case, my mentor was named, and I recommend that. Since he had 12,000 hours, he was a non issue.

After my 50 hours mentoring, I went for the SPE recurrent, got it, and then I could fly myself single pilot. I had the hours to qualify for the SPE (namely the 500 turbine seems to be the common barrier).

My assumption is that the owner pilot without an SPE could fly crew with any legally qualified SIC once past the mentoring requirement. This may vary with underwriters, so best to check before assuming. After the mentoring time, then they can go fly as PIC with any qualified SIC. That is what I hope the policy would allow.

If you required the SIC to meet the OPW, that means almost no SIC would qualify outside of a high time pro pilot.


My policy doesn't clearly say, yours might not either.

Mike C.

I have a 501 and initial type rating had an SIC required limitation. My insurance was very particular about the SIC. This may not be typical, I had 0 jet and 0 turbine time. Meeting insurance requirement was more difficult than faa compliance. Now limitation is removed but I bring along SIC on occasion. Unfortunately I don't think they can technically log their time.

Matt

Was it clear what was mentoring time and what an SIC needed to be?

I'm wondering if mentoring and SIC got munged together somehow at the beginning.


They can log their time if they are a "required crewmember". They become required if ANY of the things listed in the AFM for single pilot operations aren't met.

Those are:
- autopilot with approach coupling
- flight director
- boom/headset microphone
- ident switch on pilot's yoke

You could game the system by, say, not having a boom/headset microphone, but that's kind of weird.

An SIC would also be required if your license has "SECOND IN COMMAND REQUIRED" on it. If so, the right seater can log the time.

If the SIC is a required crewmember, then insurance terms may come into play.

My situations allows me to the the single pilot PIC, but still have right seaters log time, due to the quirk in the rules when I have an SPE. In my case, my SPE is no longer valid if my SPE documents are not on board, so I can make them a required crewmember just by removing the SPE folder from the cabinet. But I don't have to do that due to the exact wording of 61.51 SIC logging.

Mike C.

Unfortunately my policy did not have any specific mentoring time requirement. It was very specific about PIC versus SIC and who could be either. Bottom line, the SIC needed to be named or meet the open pilot warranty (3,000 total time, 1,500 multi-engine turbine or jet & 100 make and model). These somewhat stringent requirements may be unique to a situation like mine but is understandable I think.

I didn't mind the restriction (just meant I had to have a strong SIC instead of a warm body) as it was great learning for me in the 1st year of ownership and transition. A bit of juggling and effort but found 2 well qualified guys with lots of 501 experience and 1 other with a lot of multi turbine experience but zero jet time who got his PIC (without the SIC limitation) with me and the carrier was willing to name him. Never missed a flight due to no SIC available. Great learning to get different perspectives from different guys. Essentially a year where each flight was me flying "as if I was single pilot" with a good mentor in right seat.

Matt

Can someone spell out for me the autopilot capabilities of the 501SP? How do they fly approaches? I’m assuming they aren’t fully coupled approaches? Trying to figure out how much work these airplanes are on an approach. Thanks!

It is a Honeywell SPZ-500C autopilot/FD. Fully coupled for approach. The only thing you will not have is enroute VNAV coupling.

It is surprisingly robust. The best non-garmin autopilot i’ve ever used.

Both Genesys (STEC) and Garmin have the 501 on their digital autopilot roadmap, but neither is imminent. Genesys talks like they will be the first, but nothing positive yet. That will add VNAV capabilities which allows tracking climb/descend via procedures.

It isn't a great loss not to have VNAV, just means you need to set new altitudes at each waypoint, but you had to adjust throttles then anyway. On my TXi displays or the flight plan page of the GTN, it shows the next altitude, so you are kept informed by the avionics.

The SPZ500 vertical modes include ALT, VS, and IAS. With a properly installed Garmin navigator, it will fly the whole lateral procedure of an approach and couple to GS at the right time. It is pretty nice. It is almost hands off from the IAF to DH, you have to arm the APP mode once on the final inbound course, that's it. For go around, hit the GA button on the left throttle. In the missed, it will enter the hold and fly it (assuming a Garmin nav). Usually the missed altitude is the approach altitude, so that doesn't get readjusted, either.

It also provides flight director cues which makes hand flying very nice. I do practice raw data periodically just in case, though.

In case it wasn't clear, do get a GTN instead of whatever FMS, nav it may come with. Worth it.

There are plenty of spares for the SPZ 500 out there. FD, AP, servos, etc. The servo don't wear out unlike the Bendix M4 powder clutch stuff on the MU2.

Mike C.