BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 26 Aug 2014, 22:02

(completely kicking the thread off course.....) --->

RE: Fuel, but the desire to have "almost jet speeds"

TBM 850 or 900 ?

maybe the "price of entry" (3M+) versus 1M for the Citation is why no TBM.

Or was this covered already. Sorry if I missed it, I went to public H.S. in West Texas...

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2014, 00:42

Username Protected wrote:

(completely kicking the thread off course.....) --->

RE: Fuel, but the desire to have "almost jet speeds"

TBM 850 or 900 ?

maybe the "price of entry" (3M+) versus 1M for the Citation is why no TBM.

Or was this covered already. Sorry if I missed it, I went to public H.S. in West Texas...

I love the TBMs, but I dont think they have the seating capacity of a Citation II

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2014, 00:48

Username Protected wrote:

(completely kicking the thread off course.....) --->

RE: Fuel, but the desire to have "almost jet speeds"

TBM 850 or 900 ?

maybe the "price of entry" (3M+) versus 1M for the Citation is why no TBM.

Or was this covered already. Sorry if I missed it, I went to public H.S. in West Texas...

I love the TBMs, but I dont think they have the seating capacity of a Citation II

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2014, 10:55

Bill: The TBM is a wonderful turbine. I think six seats and like most planes, you can't fill the seats with full fuel. Not as wide a cabin, no potty although you can convert a seat.

The Citation II I'm looking at is eight to ten seats when crew is included. Carries a lot of stuff and can have coffee and snack center; enclosed potty. Ceiling of FL430 and you saw my post about flying it at FL390. With the gross weight increase, about an 800 pound payload with full fuel.

Best,

Dave

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2014, 12:44

Oh, and did we mention that the Citations have an unbelievably quite cabin throughout and pressurization rarely matched by any turboprop

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2014, 13:00

Yes yes I would buy a jet also. Just generating some discussion based on those higher fuel burns down low.

1M Citation versus sub 4M new TBM 900 = 3M left over for fuel. Assuming 4M is doable in the first place of course.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2014, 14:17

Username Protected wrote:

Well, scratching my head on this again :)
When we flew last week we had to make a short hop from Tyler to Addison; then did the longer flight up to Tulaa, Fort Smith and back, then back to Tyler. Computed the fuel usage and the long leg was as conveyed before, but the short legs, ouch over 1600 pph!
Total 2.5 flight on the hobbs was almost 500 gallons of fuel.
So, I really have to think through usage and how much may be shorter legs. On the long legs at altitude, great; on the short legs down low: ouch!

Meanwhile, met with lender on a subdivision and they may be extra nice if I keep my balance sheet about where it is.

So, scratching my head again!

My buddy who sold me the 421 estimated his CJ1 costs at 6X the 421 costs. His average trips are a little over an hour now compared to 1:30 with the 421.

Works for him....but I couldn't swallow that pill.

Best,

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2014, 14:24

Ya, but....he's got bragg'n rights.

Username Protected wrote:

My buddy who sold me the 421 estimated his CJ1 costs at 6X the 421 costs. His average trips are a little over an hour now compared to 1:30 with the 421.

Works for him....but I couldn't swallow that pill.

Best,

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2014, 14:37

Username Protected wrote:

Well, scratching my head on this again

When we flew last week we had to make a short hop from Tyler to Addison; then did the longer flight up to Tulaa, Fort Smith and back, then back to Tyler. Computed the fuel usage and the long leg was as conveyed before, but the short legs, ouch over 1600 pph!
Total 2.5 flight on the hobbs was almost 500 gallons of fuel.
So, I really have to think through usage and how much may be shorter legs. On the long legs at altitude, great; on the short legs down low: ouch!

Meanwhile, met with lender on a subdivision and they may be extra nice if I keep my balance sheet about where it is.

So, scratching my head again!

My buddy who sold me the 421 estimated his CJ1 costs at 6X the 421 costs. His average trips are a little over an hour now compared to 1:30 with the 421.

Works for him....but I couldn't swallow that pill.

Best,

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2014, 14:47

Username Protected wrote:

That seems a little on the steep side. I figure around $650/hr. for the 421, all in. I would bet the CJ1 would be $2000 or less.

Somewhere I've got a reference that compares them, but I can dry lease one for about $800 an hour. Fuel is between 1,000 and 1,250 pph in general (if you don't fly low for long). One could factor in hangar, insurance, training and get pretty close. Hanger would be about what a KA-200 is.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2014, 14:56

Username Protected wrote:

Somewhere I've got a reference that compares them, but I can dry lease one for about $800 an hour. Fuel is between 1,000 and 1,250 pph in general (if you don't fly low for long). One could factor in hangar, insurance, training and get pretty close. Hanger would be about what a KA-200 is.

His comparison included cost of money (a large disparity) since he owned both. Flying out of Phoenix always puts you on cruddy departures and arrivals far to the North, while the 421 is headed direct.

Even at 4-5 X it, like any step up in aviation, is a biggy. I think I'm headed toward single turbine myself. I have a hard time ignoring cost, and they make sense to me. The OPX/NM for an Epic is less than a 421 while traveling 100ktas faster. The downside of course is the loss of utility that the 421 offers.

-10 TPs also make sense to me.

My partner owned and flew a Citation II for 1,200 hours and he still talks about it. Its just a different level of awesome that has to be experienced I suppose. No regrets from him!

I think every owner/operator should be at least one level below what they can afford at the max. Once you start thinking about what it costs to hop in and go, the fun is over.

Best,

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2014, 15:27

Conklin DeDecker says variable cost per hour:

C550 - $2219
CJ1 - $1522
421 - $683
MU2 - $1164
B200 - $1692

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2014, 15:34

Username Protected wrote:

Conklin DeDecker says variable cost per hour:

C550 - $2219
CJ1 - $1522
421 - $683
MU2 - $1164
B200 - $1692

That's way off. $683 Variable for a 421? That is at least double reality.

My all in on the 421 is about $520 @ 300 hours annually. That is for about 55,000 NM.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2014, 15:48

Username Protected wrote:

Conklin DeDecker says variable cost per hour:

C550 - $2219
CJ1 - $1522
421 - $683
MU2 - $1164
B200 - $1692

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2014, 15:59

Username Protected wrote:

They compare in a uniform manner and it includes a crew with their training. If serious, one would have to look at the breakdown and see where they agree and disagree. I don't recall depreciation or cost of capital being in their numbers, but don't recall. And, many costs are hours flown and cost of home base variable.

The crew might be the issue.

Capital and depreciation should be in fixed costs.

Hourly figures aren't great for comparison sake. Cost per NM (Variable & Fixed) makes more sense.

Obviously, everyone here already knows all of this.....

Enjoy the II Dave.

Best,

Flying the Citation II