BeechTalk - BT - Another Search & detain story

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2011, 15:13

I would never agree to a search of an aircraft. If they cause damage during the search do you think they are going to fix it?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2011, 15:23

Is "We can always just get the dogs" really code for "I taught Astro to bark an alert when I tap him three times while he is standing next to your vehicle" ? Shoot, I can even make my dog bark on command and he has only see Canine COPS a couple of times.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2011, 15:28

When asked if they can search your property, I believe the proper response is:

"If you have probable cause to search my vehicle, then you do not need my permission. If you do not have probable cause to search my vehicle, then you do not need to. I will not give you permission to search my vehicle."

Thoughts from the legal side?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2011, 15:38

Username Protected wrote:

It seems the pilot filed a FOIA request to get more information.

A copy of the fax is attached:
---------------------------------------------------
We were able to get a copy of the fax that was sent to the local police. The “Tip” came from Customs and Border Patrol in CA. And the local Police chief was actually apologetic because he knew it was bogus. The tip itself is BS. They made it up. IF they had been watching me or investigating me they would have known my wife was with me and not some dude. That is the only part that is really a violation, they are making up an excuse to get the locals excited, and then seeing what they find. Another example was a guy accused of transporting computer chips that were stolen. I can imagine them making up stories over the coffee in the morning.

How would the public react if any Fed agency routinely made up tips so the cops would come to your house and want to search? Imagine the news coverage. That is the same thing going on here. If they have something on you, then absolutely go for it. But they did not in the 3 cases we know about just at our local airport.

The lesson you derived is correct though. Know your rights, and also know how you can help them do their job without violating your rights. That is the best thing you can do (if innocent) while saying the least amount possible.

Bob R

Ok, reading the copy of that fax is a little troubling. It is issued by DHS and collects applicable FARs. Ok. But the intro enumerates 6 main points. Remember, this is a guide to help police know how to what they are allowed to do (but we can use it too of course). However, I take issue with number 5 and 6, which read:

5) A pilot must have in their possession or readily accessible in the aircraft their pilot Logbook.

6) The aircraft registration and airworthiness certificate, and Form 337 (authorized modifications to the aircraft) must be in the aircraft.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2011, 16:18

Username Protected wrote:

When asked if they can search your property, I believe the proper response is:

"If you have probable cause to search my vehicle, then you do not need my permission. If you do not have probable cause to search my vehicle, then you do not need to. I will not give you permission to search my vehicle."

Thoughts from the legal side?

The less you talk, the better. I would leave it at 'No, you don't have my permission'.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2011, 16:20

Username Protected wrote:

When asked if they can search your property, I believe the proper response is:

"If you have probable cause to search my vehicle, then you do not need my permission. If you do not have probable cause to search my vehicle, then you do not need to. I will not give you permission to search my vehicle."

Thoughts from the legal side?

It's probably all the same to the officer.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2011, 17:44

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?cont ... 9b81dcf68a

Here is a link from aero news

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2011, 20:47

What about Customs? They do search my aircraft occasionaly and they dont ask.

Username Protected wrote:

Yep.

Never agree to a search of your car or your plane, even if they say they will tow the car, arrest you, etc.

"I'm sorry, officer, but I can't agree to a search."

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2011, 20:56

Username Protected wrote:

Yep.

Never agree to a search of your car or your plane, even if they say they will tow the car, arrest you, etc.

"I'm sorry, officer, but I can't agree to a search."

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2011, 22:28

Username Protected wrote:

What about Customs? They do search my aircraft occasionaly and they dont ask.

Crossing borders is a different scenario entirely. Customs has no business searching your airplane if you have not crossed (or are attempting to cross) a national border. If they are searching an airplane that has not crossed a border - I would simply and politely remind them (hopefully, in the presence of third-party witnesses) that they do not have my consent to search. Then, anything they find will be considered "fruit of the poisonous tree" and inadmissable in court since they violated my 4th Amendment right to due process.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2011, 22:43

I seem to recaall that if you are within 50 miles of a border you are in a constitution free zone and customs can do what it damn well pleases.

This pretty much covers most of Florida.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2011, 23:04

Username Protected wrote:

Crossing borders is a different scenario entirely. Customs has no business searching your airplane if you have not crossed (or are attempting to cross) a national border. If they are searching an airplane that has not crossed a border - I would simply and politely remind them (hopefully, in the presence of third-party witnesses) that they do not have my consent to search. Then, anything they find will be considered "fruit of the poisonous tree" and inadmissable in court since they violated my 4th Amendment right to due process.

I'm with you on declining to consent to a search but I think I'd skip the legal advice to the agents who aren't likely to see a favor in that.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2011, 23:11

Username Protected wrote:

I seem to recaall that if you are within 50 miles of a border you are in a constitution free zone and customs can do what it damn well pleases.

This pretty much covers most of Florida.

Not at all. That is an internet rumor. The 4th Amendment applies in all cases unless you cross a border - even then, it exists, but in a more limited fashion.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2011, 23:32

Username Protected wrote:

I seem to recaall that if you are within 50 miles of a border you are in a constitution free zone and customs can do what it damn well pleases.

This pretty much covers most of Florida.

Not at all. That is an internet rumor. The 4th Amendment applies in all cases unless you cross a border - even then, it exists, but in a more limited fashion.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2011, 23:49

Username Protected wrote:

Not at all. That is an internet rumor. The 4th Amendment applies in all cases unless you cross a border - even then, it exists, but in a more limited fashion.

What if you're "suspected" of crossing the border (e.g. someone gave CBP an anonymous tip that you did)? Also assuming you crossed legally, already met with CBP and were cleared in by them, but are confronted later at a different location, have you recovered your full 4th amendment rights?

Another Search & detain story - from the Lancair list