18 Jan 2026, 01:41 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Illegal Dry Leases Posted: Yesterday, 12:21 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 8866 Post Likes: +11565 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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I can’t give advice that will keep people out of court and I sure can’t defend them once they are there. So this is NOT legal advice.
1. Make sure the Lessee has operational control. 2. Make sure the pilot in command works for the Lessee with no direct input regarding the flight from the Lessor. 3. Make sure you have a legal dry lease agreement drafted by an attorney for each lease AND have them involved in each lease, don’t just copy and paste. 4. Have a copy on board and MAKE SURE THAT EVERY PASSENGER UNDERSTANDS THEY ARE LEASING THE AIRCRAFT.
If you get ramp checked and a passenger gets asked “is this your airplane?” And their response is “no, it’s a charter” you are going to have fun putting that genie back in the bottle.
5. A “dry lease” does not refer to fuel, it refers to the water bags flying the airplane. Remember that and you are less likely to get in trouble. 6. If you are the pilot, remember the FAA will be just as happy nailing you as the owner. If the Lessee calls you for a trip and you call the aircraft owner to book the airplane, you’re on thin ice. I strongly recommend they book with the owner (Lessor) directly. 7. Fax a copy of the dry lease to the local FSDO. No it isn’t required, but it is recorded and you are showing you have zero intent to do something wrong.
There may be more. I share this info with all of my clients, and have never put it in writing before because I don’t want someone saying “you said this and I still got in trouble” so again, I am NOT an attorney and following this advice will help you not get in trouble, but these dry lease rules are very subjective. If you choose to dry lease, you do so at your own risk.
_________________ Be kind. You never know what someone is going through.
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Post subject: Re: Illegal Dry Leases Posted: Yesterday, 13:53 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 8866 Post Likes: +11565 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: In my experience the government generally does not care if you had any intent to do anything wrong. If they decide to come after you, they will, and that won't be the reason. Guilty until proven innocent. I wish that was in green.
_________________ Be kind. You never know what someone is going through.
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Post subject: Re: Illegal Dry Leases Posted: Yesterday, 14:02 |
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Joined: 12/20/07 Posts: 5506 Post Likes: +1608 Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Aircraft: C33A
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Username Protected wrote: This is my playground if anyone wishes to have a conversation of-line.
That said, the FAA is VERY active in ferreting out 134.5s.
The fines can be breathtaking.
As others have said, tread carefully. Yep. Illegal charter has been an enforcement focus for several years not. I've been involved in FAASTeam webinars for a few years. The powerpoints are created buy the illegal charter team and, last I heard there was a requirement the topic be covered. Strictly personal opinion - its an outgrowth of the pandemic: a combination of business aircraft flying less and well-to-do passengers not wanting to get on airlines for the trip they did take. But while the main target has been high end 134.5 "sham" leasing, there has been spill over into other areas. Robert, I'm retired form active practice now. What are you seeing on the front lines?
_________________ Mark www.midlifeflight.com "I don't understand" doesn't mean it's gray
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Post subject: Re: Illegal Dry Leases Posted: Yesterday, 14:12 |
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Joined: 09/11/09 Posts: 6338 Post Likes: +5721 Company: Middle of the country company Location: Tulsa, Ok
Aircraft: Rebooting.......
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134.5 has been around since 135 was introduced, and probably will be forever.
The FAA making the rules so "convoluted", as Mr. Schulte put it, is no boon for the folks trying to do it legally, either.
Case in point, Tulsair, about two years before shuttering all ops, surrendered their decades old charter certificate, due to onerous hoop-jumping. And the hoops seemed to change with each new POI we would get. When you have to change your opspecs every time you turn around, at some point, you call "UNCLE"!!!!
Edit: To be transparent, our charter ops weren't used as a big profit center. It was mainly a "intro to ownership" program. Kind of like, "the first hit is free", without it really being free! LOL. Many of our charter customers became owners over the years.
_________________ Three things tell the truth: Little kids Drunks Yoga pants
Actually, four things..... Cycling kit..
Last edited on 17 Jan 2026, 14:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Illegal Dry Leases Posted: Yesterday, 17:57 |
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Joined: 02/09/09 Posts: 6603 Post Likes: +3310 Company: RNP Aviation Services Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
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Username Protected wrote: I'd like to see Congress rein in this overreach on the FAA by limiting what the FAA can call "compensation".
Mike C. Yeah. I've been peeing into the wind for years over this "because I said so" manner of governance. I believe we fought a war over that. The first one. In 1776.
For what it's worth, a couple colleagues with a group I'm involved in had a meeting with Sean Duffy and Bryan Bedford a month or so ago and this was brought up. Bryan told one of the FAA legal folks to look into their definition of compensation as it was not reasonable. He commented that if the IRS doesn't consider it compensation, the FAA sure shouldn't. Whether or not anything will change is yet to be seen.
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Post subject: Re: Illegal Dry Leases Posted: Yesterday, 19:01 |
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Joined: 07/06/14 Posts: 4195 Post Likes: +2883 Location: MA
Aircraft: C340A; TBM850
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Username Protected wrote: I've since learned that the FAA would likely argue that flight was "for compensation" and illegal because someone exchanged money for the flight and because I received a partial flight hour. I haven't done another one. Well, they do have a clause that allows this kind of flight, 91.146. But it requires communicating with the FSDO before the event. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.146
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Post subject: Re: Illegal Dry Leases Posted: Yesterday, 19:02 |
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Joined: 12/29/10 Posts: 2851 Post Likes: +2807 Location: Dallas, TX (KADS & KJWY)
Aircraft: T28B,7GCBC,E90
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Username Protected wrote: 7. Fax a copy of the dry lease to the local FSDO. No it isn’t required, but it is recorded and you are showing you have zero intent to do something wrong.
Just as a heads up, it IS required to notify the FSDO if the leased plane in question is over 12,500lbs. See 91.23 - "Truth in Leasing". Robert
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Post subject: Re: Illegal Dry Leases Posted: Yesterday, 20:03 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 8866 Post Likes: +11565 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: 7. Fax a copy of the dry lease to the local FSDO. No it isn’t required, but it is recorded and you are showing you have zero intent to do something wrong.
Just as a heads up, it IS required to notify the FSDO if the leased plane in question is over 12,500lbs. See 91.23 - "Truth in Leasing". Robert
Yes, you are correct. I should have said “do it, even if it isn’t required”
_________________ Be kind. You never know what someone is going through.
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Post subject: Re: Illegal Dry Leases Posted: Yesterday, 21:51 |
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Joined: 07/23/09 Posts: 1136 Post Likes: +682 Location: KSJT
Aircraft: PC-24 Citabria 7GCBC
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Username Protected wrote: The FAA has taken a very expansive view of what is "compensation", even so far as to classify "flight time" as compensation in some cases. Since every pilot is getting flight time, the FAA can, at will, deem any flight is for "compensation". Fighting that can be exhausting in court.
Is it the FAA taking a wide view or the attorneys writing clickbait taking the view? - real question here. I’ve not found any real cases where the FAA blatantly used a wide definition of compensation when there wasn’t some obvious fishy business going on. The broad take on "compensation" (including flight time, goodwill, etc.) gets thrown around, but tied to sketchy setups - not innocent time-building or flying friends. Examples I have found where FAA used a wider scope of compensation: - **Blakey v. Murray (NTSB Order EA-5061, 2003)**: Private pilot flew multiple strangers to a Super Bowl party at his friend's bar after real charters fell through. Passengers paid the bar a fee covering transport, FAA warned him ahead of time it was illegal, he ignored it. 270-day suspension. Not random goodwill; clear indirect benefit and prior notice. - **Flytenow v. FAA (D.C. Circuit, 2015)**: App-based platform for posting flights and finding expense-sharing passengers from the public. Court upheld FAA: that's "holding out" to anyone, turning it into compensation requiring commercial certs. Not private friends; effectively running an unlicensed charter service. In practice, it seems flights with friends and known pax seem to go on without drama if the passengers are paying their prorated share and there's no public offering. I’d like to see some real cases the FAA has used an expansive definition of compensation if it's truly clean (known passengers) and all with no fishy elements.
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Post subject: Re: Illegal Dry Leases Posted: Today, 00:18 |
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Joined: 06/02/15 Posts: 4345 Post Likes: +3010 Location: Fresno, CA (KFCH)
Aircraft: T210M
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Username Protected wrote: At the risk of poking a bees nest, I will submit this ....
135 v. 91 has nothing to do with "air safety."
I humbly submit that it is an economic regulation - protecting large 135s and 121s.
To be sure, I can load up a Pilatus with anyone I want as long as the checkbook does not come out.
Once it does, it's all about "air safety,"
Without getting long and tedious, I did a deep dive on this in a case.
At the University of Miami there is a fascinating collection of materials from TWA/PanAm.
Those materials contain the lobbying efforts and Howard Hughes and Juan Tripp as their nascent airlines were just getting started.
Congressional testimony was VERY interesting.
Suffice it to say, both men did not want you and me flying folks around "for compensation or hire" for fear it would deprive their aircraft of butts for seats.
This is back in the days of the CAB which as you know became our overlord the FAA.
Put simply, the package may have been wrapped in "air safety," but in the box was anti-competition. Exactly. No one with the bank to be chartering airplanes is so unsophisticated they think a friend of a friend with a Bonanza is operating at the same level of safety as a commercial carrier. The FAA should drop all the holding out, for hire etc rules for SE pistons and only worry about two things: Pilot holds Commercial certificate and the flights are made within the ordinary rules of flight.
_________________ 1977 Cessna 210, with "elite" turbocharging.
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