The last number that I heard for a 300 10 year gear overhaul was $110-$160. I can’t speak to the 100 and the numbers that Chip provided, but this number was given to me by an Embraer approved service center but not directly from Embraer.

One thing that I would say would alters the equation dramatically for the OP is the age of the 300 being considered. I have operated 3 brand new ones that required very little in the first 5 years. I can’t speak to actual numbers as I just drive them, and the owners have bought new prior to them being beyond warranty each time.

Brad

That sounds about right for the gear, and then add for the 10 year.


I’d have to get updated numbers on what they’re currently seeing and can do that, basically Embraer knows that have to do whatever they must do to gets those numbers down or it will kill their sales.

Like you, my experience is mainly with new airplanes.

I can't afford a CJ2 or CJ3.

I can afford a 560 V.

You have to include the cost of capital. A CJ3 is at least $3M more to buy, and that's $200K per year in interest payments alone. Then there's the Williams engine tax to ad don top of that.


Nor leave out the cost of capital.

All dollars in and all dollars out, a 560 V is cheaper than a CJ3, especially in this day and age of high interest rates.

Further, the 560 V can be operated on extended inspection intervals, 3 years phase 1-4 and 6 years phase 5. The CJ series can't match that. I did my phase 1-4 in late 2022, now I don't have a major inspection until late 2025. Major uptime and cost win!

I'd be wary of Chip's dogmatic assertions. He promotes a different ecosystem that confuses expensive with valuable sometimes, like factory service center maintenance.

Mike C.

Any room in your world for the independent small competent shop to exist?

Seems like a number of comments assume such shops are out of the back of a pickup truck, have ridiculously low rates like $40/hour, and they don't know what they are doing.

But there are small independent shops out there that are nothing like that.

And this is no different than working on a 172. Some shops know what they are doing, some don't. If an owner can't tell the difference, things usually end badly.


You mean, like the factory service center that puts the wrong ignitor leads on my right engine?

Or chooses to RTV a leaking fitting in the pressurization system instead of buying a new one for $20?

Or applied gobs of RTV to fix a deteriorated fresh air duct instead of replacing it?

Or uses the wrong screw sizes for various nut plates and breaks them, then sticks a self tap screw in its place?

Yes, all that was found on my plane and it had been exclusively maintained by Textron service centers. My shop attention to detail and my supervision yields a very good outcome. My plane is SIGNIFICANTLY in better shape than when I bought it. Everything is fixed RIGHT, and that's the ultimate way to save money in the long run.

There are obviously bad small shops out there who don't know how to care for a Citation. But you can get crap like that at the top shops such as Textron, Duncan, Weststar, etc.

Mike C.

Capital costa aside - flying 300-400 hours per year, which jet has the most uptime?

This is a big issue with Piaggio. Up to 200hrs I am not sure anything is better. I am going to be jumping up to 300 hours. I know a phenom is better in that regard. Not sure about citations?

I don’t believe that you will see an appreciable difference between the two if both older airframes are maintained. We operated a 3 and a 300 at the same time and both had excellent dispatch rates.

Brad

I can't afford a CJ2 or CJ3.

I can afford a 560 V.

You have to include the cost of capital. A CJ3 is at least $3M more to buy, and that's $200K per year in interest payments alone. Then there's the Williams engine tax to ad don top of that.


Nor leave out the cost of capital.

All dollars in and all dollars out, a 560 V is cheaper than a CJ3, especially in this day and age of high interest rates.

Further, the 560 V can be operated on extended inspection intervals, 3 years phase 1-4 and 6 years phase 5. The CJ series can't match that. I did my phase 1-4 in late 2022, now I don't have a major inspection until late 2025. Major uptime and cost win!

I'd be wary of Chip's dogmatic assertions. He promotes a different ecosystem that confuses expensive with valuable sometimes, like factory service center maintenance.

Mike C.

Engine reserves are also a capital cost for most owners. Your engine times determine what the market will pay for your airplane when you sell it.

So, a separate category, then, per your guidance.

It is all in how you tilt the scales to make it come out how you want it.

The only true measure is all money in, all money out, what did it cost. Anything else is being delusional.

For me, my V has cost me negative dollars to operate it since I could sell it now for more than all the money I have put into it, including fuel.

And that brings me to another point, depreciation. Buy a newer plane, you suffer that more. Buy a more expensive airplane and you have far more downside risk. With high interest rates, all money is losing value if sunk into an airplane versus in investments (or not being used to pay interest).

Newer being cheaper to operate only works when you are purposefully blind to the other costs involved. This is why people are not lining up to buy new 172s and older ones are cheaper to operate all in. Same applies to jets, just bigger numbers.

Mike C.

Uptime is a big issue with the Piaggio?

Your post was ambiguous whether the Piaggio was high or low uptime.

For me, having long inspection intervals is a great help to high uptime.

Mike C.

Uptime is not an issue at current usage. Based on everyone I have talked to, including what you have posted on here about your V, the Piaggio for me has been highest uptime of any plane I could have bought. Zero missed flights, once a year maint and it aligns with time I was not using plane. If u fly 200 hours per year all events line up nice and neatly and there is no calendar items for part 91.

If I jump from 180-200 hours up to 300-400 then the maint management becomes an issue bc it’s not local. My understanding is I could fly a phenom 300 hours and have one event per year.

Piaggio could work if I figure out local maint or even hire my own mechanic.

I have done the math a thousand ways and talked to lots of people. Nothing will beat Piaggio for current missions and useage. Not even close.

Non stop also an issue for me - in new reality longer legs would be really nice. Right now I can go NS in say 25kts or less headwind. I want to do that in 80kts which really requires an 1800nm plane. And I don’t want to do it flying an Ultra at 300kts. I know the range goes to practically infinity at that setting it’s just not my jam.

A Piaggio and a full time mechanic doing all my maint is still cheaper to run than an Ultra. By a lot. It’s all based on how and where you fly though. Give me cheap hanger space and the right amount of hours per year and ultra or V makes a ton of sense!

Capital cost is also interesting - the math is surprising to me but given I will be 98% biz usage, the depcreaiton save in first two years balances the scales more than I realized.

Let’s see: Mike C is an MIT educated engineer . I know for fact I’m not. How many others on this forum fall in that category? Mike T is a legacy guy who I suspect anticipates making a living selling parts and planes. Ie. He makes a living crawling around in these things. And as Bruce noted, having dealt with my fair share of pickup mechanics, which WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN, I, like most, are going to have to pay the pros.
Not that there’s not a lot of truth to what Mike C says: I wouldn’t dream of taking my Mercedes to a Mercedes dealer.
So basically you have to find a place in the middle. At least most of us.

I have heard, and I’m sure there’s a lot of truth to it: “Everything after the V is Ego”.

Too funny: there’s a LJ31A on the ramp at one of my strips. The pickup guy said” sure I can do a 12 yr inspection” That was 2 years ago, and counting.

For what it’s worth, in Piaggio land, I have found all the maintenance providers extremely good. Pickup guys won’t touch it

Replying to this post since it is a short one, but your comment about hiring a mechanic got me thinking....

Between schooling, tooling, and manuals, could you partner with one or two other Piaggio owners on here and pull this off?

I have no idea of the actual man hours per year needed. Could a solo person do this, would a helper be required.

It is an interesting thought experiment.

Are there enough of those around that an AOG event is reasonably handled?

I would not expect to find many shops with the manuals and certainly not with any specialized tooling it may require. Just too few of them around. This was partly true of the MU2, though it had been around so long and was more numerous at one time, so it had more widespread exposure.

One of the things I like about the legacy Citation ecosystem is that it is extensive. Lots of people have worked on them all over the country.


Pickup guys got into this conversation to try and besmirch independent shops, implying only expensive shops know what they are doing and the rest are yahoos who drive pickup trucks. They are not really in play for any of these types, and that stereotype is wrong, of course.

Mike C.

All depends on your figure of merit function, what you place emphasis on for the mission. Time, money, comfort, etc.

I'd put some value on the solvency of the manufacturer, too. The new buyer could make owning a Piaggio really expensive as every owner is a captive customer to some degree.


Long range cruise in my V at FL430 is 357 KTAS, 818 pph, at mid weights. Goes about 1800 nm with 1000 lbs reserve starting at gross weight (1000 lbs in the cabin).


Love to see that math. Having a mechanic on staff doesn't make the parts cost nothing. At 200 hours/year, the mechanic will cost $500 per flight hour.

Ultras do cost more to run than a V. The JT15D-5D HT blades are very pricey and not long lived. The Primus 1000 screens are expensive.

The only thing my inspection program requires that occurs more often than 12 months or 200 hours is battery cap check (every 6 months). Otherwise, all items can be done such that there is at least 12 months and 200 hours left until they are due again. The 200 hours is limited by the engine oil filter inspection, the 12 months by the phase 18 safety inspection, both of which can be done in one day. Every 2 years, RVSM and transponders (2 days, my only remote shop). Every 3 years phase 1-4. Every 6 years phase 5. No gear overhaul.

The amount of time, money, and inconvenienced saved with maintenance on field is staggering to me. My MU2 was always remote maintenance and despite it being moderately close, that was always a big investment in time and cost of flying there and back. It also caused various inefficiencies in choosing strategies, such as always paying for overnight shipping, or choosing exchange parts to get the plane back to home sooner.

Mike C.