09 Jul 2025, 02:44 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: V FJ44 wouldn't that be cool! Posted: 14 Mar 2023, 09:30 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 20439 Post Likes: +25711 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: You can’t check the bigger cabin / true double club boxes. Citation 560 can be fitted with true double club. You just commented on that in another thread about not having the galley. Here's an example: https://www.controller.com/listing/for- ... t-aircraftQuote: So, you’re calling my client stupid? Yes, I consider it stupid to buy a $6M turboprop when you can have a jet that does the job better and safer for less. Quote: But he has a $6M airplane and could have easily replaced it with a $13M airplane… hmmm… Wealth and intelligence are not always correlated. I bet that $13M plane doesn't have props, either. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: V FJ44 wouldn't that be cool! Posted: 14 Mar 2023, 09:41 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 8160 Post Likes: +10516 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: I guess I could slow down to that speed in my V to give the King Air a chance. Otherwise, I check all those boxes you listed.
I'm certain I spend less per mile on maintenance. My runway numbers are less than a King Air 300 series, too.
If you got $6M to spend on a corporate class passenger plane, it shouldn't have props. That's stupid, IMO.
Mike C. You can’t check the bigger cabin / true double club boxes. So, you’re calling my client stupid? But he has a $6M airplane and could have easily replaced it with a $13M airplane… hmmm…
Yep, but YOU can’t check that box and most V owners can’t and it’s still a much smaller cabin.
New King Airs and Pilatus are selling for $7M, I guess you are smart and all of those people are stupid.
Boy, you went from budget Turboprop to “jet elite” in a hurry!
_________________ Winners don’t whine.
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Post subject: Re: V FJ44 wouldn't that be cool! Posted: 14 Mar 2023, 09:46 |
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Joined: 11/30/12 Posts: 4890 Post Likes: +5550 Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
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Username Protected wrote: You can’t check the bigger cabin / true double club boxes. Citation 560 can be fitted with true double club. Yes, I consider it stupid to buy a $6M turboprop when you can have a jet that does the job better and safer for less.
You cabin is significantly smaller, and that matters to some people when the jet might only save them a few minutes on their 300 nm regular trip to the oil fields. And as much as you are proud of the short field capabilities of your jet, it absolutely does not take off and land as short as a King Air.
If you call people who have different priorities stupid, don't be surprised when you hear it coming back the other way. As you've pointed out, we all have different needs and that's why there are so many choices.
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Post subject: Re: V FJ44 wouldn't that be cool! Posted: 14 Mar 2023, 09:53 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 20439 Post Likes: +25711 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Yep, but YOU can’t check that box and most V owners can’t For way less than a Blackhawk upgrade, I can check that box by replacing my galley with a seat. That 8th passenger sure is expensive! Quote: and it’s still a much smaller cabin. King Air 300 cabin volume: 303 cubic feet. Citation V cabin volume: 292 cubic feet. Yup, that's worth $5M more. Not. Quote: Boy, you went from budget Turboprop to “jet elite” in a hurry! I've always got the best airplane I can afford which means not wasting money in the wrong places. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: V FJ44 wouldn't that be cool! Posted: 14 Mar 2023, 10:09 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 20439 Post Likes: +25711 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: And as much as you are proud of the short field capabilities of your jet, it absolutely does not take off and land as short as a King Air. Citation V, max weights, sea level, ISA: Takeoff: 3160 ft Landing: 2870 ft I don't believe any King Air 300 series is less when subject to the same balanced field length requirements the jet meets. The takeoff number Textron publishes for the 360 is 3,300 ft takeoff, for example. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: V FJ44 wouldn't that be cool! Posted: 14 Mar 2023, 10:43 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 8160 Post Likes: +10516 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: Yep, but YOU can’t check that box and most V owners can’t For way less than a Blackhawk upgrade, I can check that box by replacing my galley with a seat. That 8th passenger sure is expensive! Quote: and it’s still a much smaller cabin. King Air 300 cabin volume: 303 cubic feet. Citation V cabin volume: 292 cubic feet. Yup, that's worth $5M more. Not. Quote: Boy, you went from budget Turboprop to “jet elite” in a hurry! I've always got the best airplane I can afford which means not wasting money in the wrong places. Mike C.
King Air 300 is a different airplane than what we are comparing, the cabin on a King Air 350 is 355 cubic feet and it is quite about roomier than the V cabin.
AND... it is a TRUE double club, meaning it does not have a seat in the doorway like the Citation V, for your edification, the smallest jet with a true double club is the Lear 45XR/75
_________________ Winners don’t whine.
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Post subject: Re: V FJ44 wouldn't that be cool! Posted: 14 Mar 2023, 12:09 |
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Joined: 11/30/12 Posts: 4890 Post Likes: +5550 Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
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Username Protected wrote: The takeoff number Textron publishes for the 360 is 3,300 ft takeoff, for example. You mixed the cabin from the smaller plane with the takeoff distance from the larger plane. A King Air doesn't work for you - but it's the right plane for a lot of other operators. They're not stupid.
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Post subject: Re: V FJ44 wouldn't that be cool! Posted: 16 Mar 2023, 18:15 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 8160 Post Likes: +10516 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: A buddy of mine is on wheels up and he chartered a king air 350 to take us to his ranch. A king air wasn't available so they sent us a Citation X for no extra charge. That was a fun 38 minute flight. For the return flight, we weren't as lucky and they sent the KA 350. That was my first trip ever in a King Air of any kind. I have to say I was really unimpressed. It is hard to understand why people with all the money can justify spending new KA money when the legacy Citations are so much better in really all respects. And as far an easy to fly, I can't imagine anything being easier to fly than a Citation. The jet is definitely easier to fly! In a general sense, the bigger / more powerful the aircraft the easier it is to fly. I just did my first lesson in an R44, the last helicopter I flew was an S76B about a year ago... the S76B was a breeze!
_________________ Winners don’t whine.
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Post subject: Re: V FJ44 wouldn't that be cool! Posted: 16 Mar 2023, 19:30 |
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Joined: 09/11/09 Posts: 5959 Post Likes: +5218 Company: Middle of the country company Location: Tulsa, Ok
Aircraft: Rebooting.......
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Username Protected wrote: A buddy of mine is on wheels up and he chartered a king air 350 to take us to his ranch. A king air wasn't available so they sent us a Citation X for no extra charge. That was a fun 38 minute flight. For the return flight, we weren't as lucky and they sent the KA 350. That was my first trip ever in a King Air of any kind. I have to say I was really unimpressed. It is hard to understand why people with all the money can justify spending new KA money when the legacy Citations are so much better in really all respects. And as far an easy to fly, I can't imagine anything being easier to fly than a Citation. A lot of KA buyers in my experience, and Chip can probably verify this, purchase the King Air because of perception. The jet, regardless of if it would be less money in the long run, gives an image that a lot of buyers don't want. This even goes for the size of the King Air, if you can believe it. I have a current customer in a C90b, that could really stand to upgrade.......the best fit would be a 350........but the boss is keen on the perception of what they "allocate resources to". And since the boss writes the check............ 
_________________ Three things tell the truth: Little kids Drunks Yoga pants
Actually, four things..... Cycling kit..
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Post subject: Re: V FJ44 wouldn't that be cool! Posted: 16 Mar 2023, 20:03 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 8160 Post Likes: +10516 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: A buddy of mine is on wheels up and he chartered a king air 350 to take us to his ranch. A king air wasn't available so they sent us a Citation X for no extra charge. That was a fun 38 minute flight. For the return flight, we weren't as lucky and they sent the KA 350. That was my first trip ever in a King Air of any kind. I have to say I was really unimpressed. It is hard to understand why people with all the money can justify spending new KA money when the legacy Citations are so much better in really all respects. And as far an easy to fly, I can't imagine anything being easier to fly than a Citation. A lot of KA buyers in my experience, and Chip can probably verify this, purchase the King Air because of perception. The jet, regardless of if it would be less money in the long run, gives an image that a lot of buyers don't want. This even goes for the size of the King Air, if you can believe it. I have a current customer in a C90b, that could really stand to upgrade.......the best fit would be a 350........but the boss is keen on the perception of what they "allocate resources to". And since the boss writes the check............ 
It’s not the only reason, but it is a common one.
_________________ Winners don’t whine.
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Post subject: Re: V FJ44 wouldn't that be cool! Posted: 16 Mar 2023, 20:33 |
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Joined: 11/30/12 Posts: 4890 Post Likes: +5550 Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
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Username Protected wrote: I included that. My engine program is like $375 per hour for both engines.
What the cost of TP engine and prop on a King Air? Might not $375 total but it's not free.
And no I don't think anyone said flying a Jet is cheaper than a SETP or TETP. The argument is the overall cost to fly a jet with capital can be similar to a newer SETP and maybe even less.
So whats the engine and prop reserve for M600 and KA90? which I think both have smaller cabins than my 501sp. Have not been in a KA90 so might be wrong.
Mike Mike, I think that extra $375/hr is what pushes the Williams planes over the edge for me. With a partner, they work. Without, they don't. Mike C's JTXXX engines are cheaper, but they don't have the hot & high I need. A reasonable PT-6 budget is about $100/hr/side. You'll probably pay less. By the standards Ciholas uses here, $50/hr/side would be closer..
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Post subject: Re: V FJ44 wouldn't that be cool! Posted: 16 Mar 2023, 20:45 |
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Joined: 09/21/16 Posts: 178 Post Likes: +267 Location: KSYR
Aircraft: None currently
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Interesting thread. I grew up on Beechcrafts. My dad had Bonanzas, a Travel Air, Barons, and Queen Airs. My first two employers were Beech dealers. I had the privilege to fly nearly everything Beech made in the ‘70s and ‘80s, including C, E, and F90s, 200s and B200s. I sneered at Citation 500/550s as “near-jets”. A few years later, I flew for a company that operated 500s and 550s. I quickly found out that my preconceived notions and biases were completely wrong. Other than the wimpy bleed air windshield heat and lack of standard air conditioning, the 500/550 was (IMO) a significant leap beyond any King Air. Transport category airport performance, ability to climb above the vast majority of weather, and incredibly easy handling characteristics made me a Citation believer. With thrust reversers, we operated the Citations reliably and safely out of our 3,200’ home base year round. If you can justify the cost difference, I’d take a 500 series Citation over any King Air every time.
Greg
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