Cass,

Have you followed Jesse Johnson's Saratoga thread:

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=159870

Load, doors, wide cabin, enough speed, lots of luggage room, maybe just harder to find.

Seems to me that a A36tn or a Saratoga like JJ's would be the bee's knees. heck, given his history wait 3 or 4 months and JJ will have a plane for sale.

RAS

B58 Baron:

If your kids are really little, you are not going to be in the flight levels without pressurization, so the Turbo is not as necessary.

A Baron will climb as fast, if not faster 0-12K than a TN single

You will put people, skis, dogs, bikes, in the cabin, and the rest will go in the nose. The nose is a game changer. We seem to travel with so much stuff that has to go somewhere. The more convenient it is to load, and if you feel good about having a safe place to put everything, the more you are going to use the airplane.

Those of us with small children are not typically weight limited, we are volume limited.

Plus, if you need to go higher than 12K, it is because of weather. It really feels nice when over the mountains, in or over weather, to have two complete electrical systems, good deice equipment, etc.

We just got back from a spring break ski trip from Oregon to Mammoth. My wife and I, and our 9 and 11 year old kids. 4 pairs of skis/poles in a soft sided dakine roller back goes on the pilot side with the pilot side sixth seat out, or folded down. We each have a boot bag that holds the rest of our ski gear, and these weigh an average of 20ibs each. They go in the nose, on the floor under the ski bag.

We did legs this last trip between 8.5K up to 19K. The Baron handles it all very well.

As a side note, my kids are seasoned flyers (been flying since they were weeks old). If I plan to be at 02 levels, we put the cannulas/masks on before take off so one of the adults can help. This last trip, the weather was worse than I had expected, and we ended up needing to fly at 16K from about Reno down to Mammoth. It was a cluster getting everyone's cannulas on in the climb, and my 9yr old shed some tears over the stress of trying to put his cannula on by himself sitting in the back row.

Leaving Mammoth and hopping over to Fresno to spend a day with family, we put everything on before we launched, went to 19K (the storm that had brought all the amazing snow, was still in the mountains) and it was no big deal.

For bikes, We turn the middle row seats forward, and take the back row out. We can get 4 mountain bikes in the double rear doors only taking the front wheels off. But then you have bike shoes, helmets, bike pump........it goes in the nose.

I didn't realize how much more we would travel, and travel with gear, when we moved up from the Bonanza to the Baron.

Brent

AOPA did a fly-off between the Bonanza & Centurion a while back. There are plenty of STCs available for both airplanes that could change the numbers in the article... AOPA's test is just one data point (i.e. the Centurion they tested has an upgraded 310hp engine).

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/december/pilot/fly-off-bonanza-vs-centurion



My wife's uncle has an SR-22 and it's very spacious for a 4-seater. You've probably already done the same Google search, but here's a decent thread discussing Cirrus profiles/loading with some photo evidence of car seats included:
https://www.cirruspilots.org/copa/non_member/guest_discussion/f/11/t/146559.aspx#

The SR-22 baggage dimenions are ~ 25L x 39.8W x 38.5H with the back seats occupied... not familiar with a ski-tube modification for them.

Just my $0.02, but I'd put a premium on cabin/baggage volume as well as ease of access to that space. I can't claim any Bonanza/210 time, but I can vouch for travelling with two kids (3 yr old & 1 yr old) in a GA single. Weight hasn't been an issue for us yet, but we are definitely space limited due to the kid-related accoutrement you mentioned. Bottom line, my wife and I are looking at upgrading to a 6-place airplane to have enough space to carry 4 people & our stuff comfortably.

Good luck in your search!

Seneca III? Big cabin, nose baggage, 2 doors, good useful load, FIKI, etc... With inter coolers a solid 175 knot plane under 10k.

Should have plenty of room for the kids and pups. One pup on the floor and one on the back seat.

Definitely a P210.

Vince

There have been a lot of great responses to the OP’s question.

I am not nearly as experienced as some on this thread. But, I did buy my first plane (A36TN) about six months ago. And....I am very happy with that decision. It has been awesome.

I used Neal Schwartz as my buyer’s agent. That was probably my best decision - he saved me a lot of money by educating me about the realities of maintenance, resale value, and availability of Beech products. And, he found me an airplane before it was about to be listed on the market, which was just what I wanted. Huge. I work in an industry that is very transaction focused...and very few “brokers” add value. Neal did. My heartfelt commercial has now ended.

Anyway, you mentioned an upfront budget...but maybe the bigger question is what you would like to spend annually afterwards - for fuel, maint, a surprise. I know this is pretty obvious, but it is important. A twin will have way more expense...and way more peace of mind (and sometimes UL) for an experienced pilot. But that’s a value equation only you can make.

As a fairly low time guy, I can say the A36 holds a lot...is easy to fly....has been satisfying to fly...covers a lot of ground fast (tip tanks; does 180-185 it TAS in the low teens). The cargo space is very large. With the tip tanks, gross weight can be increased to ~4K lbs (a legal change, but the physics of the plane are the same).

Mine isn’t FIKI (not that I should want to contend with ice), but that is my only wish list item...and for FIKI it would seem a twin is better. I have two kids...but my deal with my ex is that I can fly them once I get my Comm certificate. Fair enough for me, but I cannot give you a PIREP. I do know they would fit and be comfortable.

One other thought: singles are easier to sell if you want to move to another plane...bigger market of buyers...

Good luck,
Dan

Daniel, you summarized it well.

I think you should also consider a Malibu. I was a happy A36 driver for over five years. Great plane with all the extras (tips, ac, radar). I'm now a PA-46 flyer and it's amazing. Super comfortable, pressurization makes a massive difference, 205 TAS on 14.8 gallons at FL210. And plenty of room for luggage and easy access via the cabin step door.

my $0.02

What’s your increase in O&M costs from the bo to the Malibu?

Malibu costs are probably in line with a Baron or similar NA twin.

There are benefits to aircraft manufactured before 1980. Why? The Vintage Aircraft Maint Advisory Circular ... allows reasonable parts substitutions (that meet Milspec, SAE, ASTM standards, but lack TSO/STC/PMA/whatever approval.

In 1990 we had 2 young daughters and a desire for family travel.

We looked hard at The Saratoga, C-210 and A36.

The A36 was hands down the winner. We still own it nearly 30 years later although now it has a 550 and TAT TN system.

Golf clubs pack nicely (vertically) between the cockpit and club seats along with a surprising amount of soft sided luggage.

Skis fit easily (horizontally) between the club seats, or seats can be removed leaving a huge baggage area.

Our girls grew up in the club seats and loved it. Room for naps, reading, games, snacks, etc. Mom often sat with them leaving me with a sterile cockpit.

We’ve been to every state in the lower 48 west of the Mississippi and several east of it.

The only thing that would make us trade up is pressurization but I’m not sure we can afford to write those checks.

The A36 is fast, roomy, comfortable, efficient and a great choice for a growing family.

To date, operating costs are rather similar to my Bo. Fuel consumption is slightly higher due to the longer climbs, but cruising burn is the same LOP. Can't comment on annual maintenance trends yet as this is a one off year (currently hanging a new motor etc). The annual last July came in at $4,000.

Malibu vs. Bo expense differences tend to be lumpy costs due to things not present on a Bo (boots, heated windshield, radar, etc) or that just cost more because it's niche piper parts rather than something widely available (i.e. $6k gear pump overhaul)

The Malibu is an incredibly cost efficient pressurized piston twin.

Hard to beat an A36 or 210 as the sweet spot with respect to insurance cost. The Cirrus just tend to be more. I’ve also seen some really ridiculous annual maintenance expenses on the Cirrus, out of line for the simplicity of what it should be. Malibu changes the game entirely (size, training, resale).

As others mentioned the barn doors of the A36 are simply the best if loading anything is any consideration.