28 Nov 2025, 18:45 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: A “Civilian” P-38 Posted: 22 Feb 2019, 10:06 |
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Joined: 01/23/13 Posts: 9428 Post Likes: +7105 Company: Kokotele Guitar Works Location: Albany, NY
Aircraft: C-182RG, C-172, PA28
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Username Protected wrote: The prototype P-38, and maybe some of the first production models did not have counter rotating props. Both engines spun the same way.
The reason for outward counter rotating props I read was that in the event of an engine out, the torque of the running engine "lifted", or helped keep the airplane level in single engine flight. Early P-38s had the counter rotating engines. They were mounted opposite what it is today. They found it couldn’t fly off the ground in the required length of runway. In the course of, What are we gonna do about, discussions someone suggested switching engine positions. They did that and it improved its takeoff performance.
The was the story I've read many times about the XP-82 Twin Mustang, but I hadn't heard that about the P-38 before.
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Post subject: Re: A “Civilian” P-38 Posted: 22 Feb 2019, 12:19 |
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Joined: 08/30/13 Posts: 419 Post Likes: +71 Company: Cruce Aircraft Services Location: KPGD
Aircraft: Learjet 55, C-310
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Username Protected wrote: Who knows why I say that?
What unusual feature does this airplane share with the P-38?
Now, be specific.
Bonus points if you know the reason. Is there some sort of fence on the wingtip?
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Post subject: Re: A “Civilian” P-38 Posted: 22 Feb 2019, 14:23 |
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Joined: 08/18/11 Posts: 321 Post Likes: +290 Company: American Aviation, Inc. Location: Hayden Lake, ID
Aircraft: C90,340,PA31T,PC-12
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Increasing horsepower can make the airplane less stable in pitch. The original 601P Aerostar wasn’t very longitudinally stable to start with, and the stick force per G slope was very low. When Machen installed 350 hp engines we tested the airplane to see if it would pass the longitudinal stability test and it didn’t. The solution was to add a stability bob weight to the elevator control system. This made the airplane way more stable and also increased the stick force per G. When Piper tried to certify their 700P they reversed the counter rotating engine to contra-rotating where the down turning blade was outside of the nacelles in an effort to improve the longitudinal stability. That wasn’t enough so they closed up the aft CG limit. That didn’t fix the problem either, so they copied the bob weight, that Machen developed and that fixed it. Why didn’t they reverse the engines back to the original configuration? I don’t know the answer but I did hear that the test pilots thought it was quieter. I suspect it was time to certify the airplane and they just said certify the airplane as is. I have flown several 700P’s, conventional right hand rotating engine Aerostars, and the counter rotating versions. There is no significant difference in noise but the counter rotating airplane climbs better with the left engine inoperative than with the right engine rotating right.
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Post subject: Re: A “Civilian” P-38 Posted: 22 Feb 2019, 22:37 |
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Joined: 11/22/12 Posts: 2929 Post Likes: +2906 Company: Retired Location: Lynnwood, WA (KPAE)
Aircraft: Lancair Evolution
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Username Protected wrote: Early P-38s had the counter rotating engines. They were mounted opposite what it is today. They found it couldn’t fly off the ground in the required length of runway. The was the story I've read many times about the XP-82 Twin Mustang, but I hadn't heard that about the P-38 before. Eric is correct, Rich is relating the story of the XP-82, which went from top blades rotating "outward" to "inward". The P-38 went the other way, the XP-38 was top blades "inward" rotating, the YP-38 "outward". According to the Smithsonian and the Aircraft Engine Historical Society, this was to address some stability issues encountered with the "inward" rotation on the XP-38. The adverse impact on the P-38's engine-out behavior didn't deter the change.
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Post subject: Re: A “Civilian” P-38 Posted: 23 Feb 2019, 00:25 |
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Joined: 04/06/11 Posts: 9685 Post Likes: +5143
Aircraft: Warbirds
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Username Protected wrote: Eric is correct, Rich is relating the story of the XP-82, which went from top blades rotating "outward" to "inward". The P-38 went the other way, the XP-38 was top blades "inward" rotating, the YP-38 "outward". According to the Smithsonian and the Aircraft Engine Historical Society, this was to address some stability issues encountered with the "inward" rotation on the XP-38. The adverse impact on the P-38's engine-out behavior didn't deter the change. My info came from The late Tony Levier, who was a Lockheed Test Pilot during WWII. According to him, changing engine location allowed the P-38 to have a shorter ground roll.
_________________ Be careful what you ask for, your mechanic wants to sleep at night.
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Post subject: Re: A “Civilian” P-38 Posted: 23 Feb 2019, 02:39 |
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Joined: 11/22/12 Posts: 2929 Post Likes: +2906 Company: Retired Location: Lynnwood, WA (KPAE)
Aircraft: Lancair Evolution
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Username Protected wrote: My info came from The late Tony Levier, who was a Lockheed Test Pilot during WWII. According to him, changing engine location allowed the P-38 to have a shorter ground roll. No disrespect to Tony but he never flew the XP-38, the only one with inward props, the change was made to outward rotation before he joined the program. The Aircraft Engine Historical Society info that it was for stability and buffeting comes from P-38 designer Kelly Johnson.
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Post subject: Re: A “Civilian” P-38 Posted: 07 Mar 2019, 17:37 |
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Joined: 11/18/13 Posts: 396 Post Likes: +65 Location: F70
Aircraft: AEST601B S-211 B-777
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I understood, in the case of the P-38, it had to do with prop wash on the tail, but not sure if it was the vertical or horizontal stab.
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