BeechTalk - BT - Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Jun 2018, 22:03

Fantastic summary and write-up!!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Jun 2018, 22:10

Username Protected wrote:

Another small but meaningful benefit. Hydraulic system on the baggage door. Vs old mechanical system with a lock that people always try to force close and break.

There is an upgrade the legacy airplanes to a similar system using a gas spring.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Jun 2018, 22:12

The N1 computer is awesome too!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Jun 2018, 22:19

Username Protected wrote:

I was just amazed at all the things they did to make it even better.

Paying $2M more for doodads isn't me, so the legacy Citations offer the most performance I can get for the dollar even if I have to fly it in an old fashioned way.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Jun 2018, 22:51

Username Protected wrote:

I was just amazed at all the things they did to make it even better.

Paying $2M more for doodads isn't me, so the legacy Citations offer the most performance I can get for the dollar even if I have to fly it in an old fashioned way.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jun 2018, 00:34

Username Protected wrote:

Uses 22382 vs the ugly skydrol fluid

83282

Good write up.

Andrew

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jun 2018, 00:43

Username Protected wrote:

Electrical Systems: 500 series have DC & AC busses and hence require an inverter that could result in failures. The 525 series do not have an AC bus. The avionics themselves have AC built into each unit but nothing that is controllable by the pilot.

The straight Cjs up to model #359 do have an AC system and invertors that are pilot selectable in case of failure.

There is some talk that this may have been what failed in the SLC, UT CJ crash.

Andrew.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jun 2018, 18:02

Quote:

when the SID/STAR is loaded and the Proline 21 in a CJ2 cannot? I don't know anything about PL21 except that I thought I'd heard that one of the big deals about an FMS system was VNAV

It has a Universal UNS-1 FMS and not the Collins FMS used in most others.

Not all Pro-Line 21s are the same.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jun 2018, 20:44

Username Protected wrote:

I was just amazed at all the things they did to make it even better.

Paying $2M more for doodads isn't me, so the legacy Citations offer the most performance I can get for the dollar even if I have to fly it in an old fashioned way.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jun 2018, 21:12

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jun 2018, 21:58

Mark,

That has to be the funniest reply to any post! (I gave it a like)

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jun 2018, 22:33

I think Mike might be a little further away from buying a jet than you'd think from his posts. Let's just say he's thoroughly researched the market by now.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jun 2018, 23:22

Username Protected wrote:

Mark,

That has to be the funniest reply to any post! (I gave it a like)

Brevity isn’t generally my thing. :lol:

I once posted that Mike was approaching buying a jet asymptotically. I have searched for a reason to use that term for nearly 40 years!

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/asymptotically

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jun 2018, 23:31

Username Protected wrote:

Mike I have been following your journey towards purchasing a CJ for the past several years - After all of this talk, what did you ultimately end up buying and how has the experience been?

In December, I made an offer on an S550 with Williams, G600, GTN. The idea was that the purchase of the airplane at that time would have a very positive impact on taxes with 100% expensing and business profits to put it up against.

Offer was declined and due to time constraints, I didn't feel like going higher since I could not get anything resembling a decent prebuy done. That took the pressure off time wise. I also got a little sour on the TKS system, but my feelings on that come and go.

Since that time, I've been bouncing around as to what my favored next plane would be. For a time, I thought a 501SP Eagle II with Williams, avoids SPE, smaller, less costly, but after a test flight in one of those, came away somewhat disappointed with the performance at altitude. The Eagle II fat wing with more fuel isn't meant to go anywhere near mach 0.70. The Stallion (501SP with Williams, but stock wing) seemed faster, but didn't have the range.

For a time, I became fascinated with the Ultra. Really good performance, FL450, 400+ knots, has reversers, but burns lots of fuel, but not needing a program, so hard to say what the operating cost would be. A question is how ADS-B works for the Ultra (few have it) and it has actual CRT displays (real "glass"), which sound like a possible support problem long term. Also, seemed like a pretty big airplane for what I really need, and lastly, range isn't enough to make the non stop trip. So it was kind of the biggest airplane that would just NOT do the trip.

So I am back to mostly looking at S550 with Williams. It's the only SP jet I can afford that will do the mission (not even the CJ3/CJ4 really do it, either). I know of 11 conversions that exist. A large number are for sale right now and a few have sold recently (including N112BR that I made an offer on, the new owner has permission to fly into some high security places, like DCA, Andrews, other military bases).

I think the used jet market is going to undergo considerable turmoil in the next 18 months as ADS-B becomes a bigger issue. I can already see price deflation on some models. The pricing on S550 with Williams started at $2M about 18 months ago, and now appears headed for $1.5M typical, or maybe less, so a pretty steep price gradient. Oil prices creeping up also tamps demand somewhat, plus the CJ series getting cheaper. CJ2s, in particular, put an upper bound on legacy pricing for the II, V series, even with Williams, but a CJ2 doesn't really fit my mission.

Quote:

I feel like those of us on the cusp of upgrading have a lot to learn given the depth of your research.

It is a roller coaster ride.

Some days I feel like just buying a 441 and skipping the jet altogether. Those days pass fairly quickly, though. A jet is the right machine to get. Faster, longer, higher, safer, easier than what I got now.

The last factor is that my business was great last year but it down a bit this year, so not a good time to buy for me for that reason alone. The optics are a lot better if the jet happens when business is up.

My next project is to make my MU2 ADS-B out.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 04 Jun 2018, 01:08

Username Protected wrote:

My next project is to make my MU2 ADS-B out.

Luckily, it ain't hard. GTX330ES for me 7+ years ago, I've been compliant ever since. Probably a GTX345 is today's better option, but... as avionics go, it's not a huge project.