Hi Josh,

With your experience level I would recommend against trying to get to your mission airplane in one jump. Starting with a heavy single, such as a 210, Bo, Saratoga, etc, and steping up as your experience increases will make the journey far more plausible.

A 1200 mm/200kt plane with a cabin load of 6-700 pounds is going to be tough in anything that burns avgas and folks that have jumped right to a PC-12, etc with limited flight experience have often ran into trouble.

Big fast GA airplanes can be unkind to low time pilots, there is no substitute for experience. Don't rush it.

Cheers,
Jeff

A potential issue is your requirement for a high useful load w a 200kt speed w only 100 hours flying per year.

I believe I can speak to the PA46s and TBMs as I own both.

If you fly intermittently a really fast plane (200+kts) can get you behind pretty fast. You should commit to regular real life flying or frequent training. The PA46s or TBMs do have low approach speeds (120-140) which can give you a little more time to think. Both are easy to fly. Both can be had for < $1M.

Turbine PA46s <$1M have pretty low useful loadss. Older Meridians will essentially be a 2-3 person airplane full fuel w 800 mile range. Piston PA46s will average 180kts or so and older Malibus and Matrix (unpressurized) have pretty good useful loads. The Mirage has less useful load but range in all of the piston PA46s is crazy good (1200nm full fuel) so you could exchange fuel for people/stuff. Insurance is kind of high considering hull value. PA46s are easy to fly but one can get into trouble if they push the limits. Annuals start at $3K and can be much higher. Things that break are not crazy expensive but this is a consumer quality airplane so small things break pretty often as w all Pipers. I do not know the cost per hour of the turbine PA46s but my Mirage runs about $350-400 including reserves.

TBM A or B models may be obtained for <$1M. Useful load will be about 1000 full fuel. Speed will average 250ish w cruise about 280. Initial training will cost about $4+K and yearly training about $1.5K. Training is pretty standardized by insurance companies. Insurance is less than PA46s by hull value. Annuals are about $10K on up depending which annual is due. Things that break can be really expensive but they don't break often. IMO TBMs are a much more capable and well designed airframe (think military grade) than a PA46 and are a little easier to fly (and land) once you learn how. It goes really fast and you can get behind the airplane if you pay attention. Cost per hour for my C2 is about $750 but I get places 50% faster than in my Mirage so I think it is a wash.

One more consideration and that is airspace. If you fly a lot around cities where ATC keeps you low the turbines burn way more fuel low, which is expensive and can reduce your range a lot. Pistons don't care.

I hope this adds to your bank of information.

Good luck w your choice.

P

^^^This...

Getting to that 1200nm trip specs is the tough one.

Regarding insurance and experience I tend to think like several others here and just do it. Yes, you will pay more for insurance and will likely have some higher transition time and lower limits initially, but it should not be too onerous. 1000 hours of bugsmasher experience will still not help you out with a big twin or turboprop insurance. You are not a 50 hour PPL...

Paul brings up a really good point here. I'm pretty new to flying over 300 MPH, and while Paul's right that the TBM is an easy plane to fly, the challenges of flying longer distances at higher speeds in more complex airspace are not insignificant and deserves respect.

You will have to deal with a lot more complicated weather decisions. You will have more expected of you from ATC and those expectations largely come in departure and arrival time periods when aircraft complexity and speed make them an even bigger challenge. You will have increased potential risks with pressurization and the need to know how to manage more systems in failure modes.

And you're not a very experienced pilot in total or recent time. And you don't really plan to fly very much. 100 hours in a piston single in a 500 mile radius is one thing but 100 hours in 6 hour trips flying 1200 miles with several souls in your charge is another.
Together these things represent a significant set of challenges.

I think older, complex twins should be a non starter. Too much too soon. Same with a jet. I think that they may do your mission but would be for you at this point.

I think a TBM, PA46 turbine, and certainly a twin turbine, while they can do your mission would be a mistake at this point as well. Not just with respect to pilot experience but I'd suggest something with less financial risk for your first airplane.

Of all the suggestions here I like a A36TN with tips. The one I had had nearly 1400 lbs of useful load so could haul your payload. You'd need to stop on your long trips but I think that's a good thing for passengers with no potty and for the inexperienced cross country pilot who can take the time to refresh and look hard at the weather. I'd look for one that isn't FIKI to avoid temptations.

I don't mean any offense here to anyone but I think sometimes financial capability can lead to alligator lips and hummingbird ass syndrome if one isn't careful. If you decide to go more capable aircraft a $500 a day pro pilot in the right seat will make your trips less stressful and is cheap life insurance. It will also be the cheapest part of owning and flying your plane 100 hours a year if you buy a turbine.

How many 421s in your study flew 1200nm? Block speed increases significantly at max range vs a 1.5 hr avg flight.

What is the hourly on a Pilatus flying 100 hours per year?

How many 12 hour RTs do you think will happen at 100 hrs per year?

That limitation says piston.

A 56TC? Thats like recommending a Dodge Hellcat for family road trips.

That is 75%.

It appears that the answer is in the question.

what's the issue....duke engines

Ok, 35gph lop 65% power 210 kts

188 gal in cruise, 218 gal total. Puts you a little over 6 hours with vfr reserves launching with 262g/ 1572 lbs of fuel. Can you find a 421 with 2572 useful load?

So for 150lbs useful once or twice a year you'd rather have a 56TC with a small cabin, no range (small fuel tanks), and very little cargo area?

What do you think his family would rather go 1200 miles in?

The man says he wants 1200nm/6hrs. I'm answering that question.

I would choose different specs and 1200nm/8 hrs in a 421 would be a good set.

For his specs ... tbm

I think the real challenge is the 1000 lbs, 1200nm in 6 hour flight time part of the mission. There are only 3 planes I see listed here that can do that mission. The PC12, TBM and M600. Put 1000 lbs in the others, and your room for fuel shrinks too much.

Almost anything can do the 700 lb 700 nm missions nicely.

Josh,

It's great that you have an instrument rating, but with 350 hours total time over all those years, it would be a stretch for you to get into a heavy single, let alone a pressurized twin or turbine.

There is no substitute for experience, as hours. Maybe think about something like a C182 or 206, even an A36, and get >a couple hundred hours/year under your belt for a while before flying IFR with family or moving to a twin or pressurization?

Bill

Don't get me started, Crandell. This conversation is your fault.

I always thought that a Bo would be my family ride (and is what I am flying these days) until you suggested a Baron a few months ago. You are right of course, the 58 is much closer to profile. The more I looked at the Baron, though, the more I saw other planes that were faster, or could carry more, or were more comfortable for family up high (pressurized). Then I hear advice that a turboprop single may be a better solution than a piston twin...and then more advice that piston is sufficient, but to stick with a single. I keep going around in circles. I realize that just because I am fortunate enough to afford a particular plane doesn't necessarily make it the right plane for me and my mission.

I know that there isn't 1 right answer, but I have come to value this group's opinion on these things. Enjoying the wisdom...

Joshua

I literally just landed from a 725nm direct flight, into 40 knot winds at 16500, right at 5 hours of engine run time on the A36TN. That's "enough" for me for the day.

You can look at that one of two ways:

1. Your 6 hour limit is very sensible.
2. Most passengers won't want to fly that 6 hour flight anyway. (On these trips, my family comes commercial not because they won't fly in the A36, but because they get the three week long "life of Riley" vacation, and I only get to join them for the middle week because someone has to pay the bills...

I really do think an A36TN is pretty damn hard to beat as your next airplane, but it definitely doesn't do everything you list. (As Luc observes, flying commercial, even first class, for your longest trips might very well save money overall.)

Don't get me started, Crandell. This conversation is your fault.