I know for a fact that you can buy a brand new Eclipse without progress payments

I could not as you know.

No well capitalized company planning on building/certifying a new airplane soon lays off skilled manufacturing labor. Makes no sense.

Writing is on the wall. Eclipse is not going to make it.

Classic story of an amazing product with terrible marketing.

Amazing evolution; when I looked at one, it was visa versa

Amazing evolution; when I looked at one, it was visa versa

So when you guys move up to a Gulfstream G650 or Global 7000, you will absolutely make progress payments. Just an FYI.

Our Challenger 300 just came out of the Tucson Service center - 2 weeks ago. Bombardier just announced they will lay off an "additional" 7500 jobs. Morale is low. Again. A new 2017 350 can be purchased for 3.5M less than our 2010 (300) was. Maybe less.

We met with Gulfstream execs a few months ago and besides offering NEW jets at 2005 prices, we were told their analysts see no upturn in manufacturing business jets on the horizon. That meeting was pre-election but...

I'm not sure how Eclipse could fare any better

Praying for the Trump Bump.

What is good for any aviation company is good for all of us.

Yes, and I can really see why you liked it. I also found it very attractive until I needed a larger payload. Of course, their initial pricing was too good to be true. Now, as you pointed out, current pricing just isn't attractive in light of alternatives.

Sigh.

It's a flying magazine, not a financial rag. They fly the plane to find out if performance claims are accurate and to give pilots a feel for how it is to fly, and publish what the company has to say about itself. Anybody who's been around aviation long enough to solo knows to take GA success claims with a big grain of salt. News organizations will investigate financial claims, but would publish claims about aircraft performance with no test flights - and I wouldn't believe the latter. You just have to know the limitations and biases of your sources.

And it is too bad Flying along with many other mags is having a hard time of it. The writing is on the wall for print publications, and there are good and bad things to say about that. If you're one of the old-timers, enjoy the magazines while they last.

Wally,

Right on.....
Even the WSJ doesn't predict failures, but better financial info the a flying mag. If you look at new planes coming out, most don't make it.... and if you add that it's coming from a new company probably 10% make it. Look at all the failure in the past several years.

The Eclipse really looked good from when Rayburn (was that his name?) started it. He was a promoter and talked well, and had great displays at the trade shows. Very tempting.

I really hope they do succeed, it sure looks neat.

Less expensive upfront, less expensive per mile (it burns 30% less fuel than the Mustang), faster and more fun to fly. Those are the main reasons.

The Mustang isn't selling much any more either--just 7 aircraft delivered in the first three quarters of 2016. There are persistent reports that the Mustang line is all but shut down now in favor of the higher margin M2.

What Eclipse is betting is that the improved version--the Canada--with its better range, far better climb and hot/high performance, larger cabin and other improvements will turn the tide for them, so they're transitioning to it now during the VLJ market slowdown. Canada does look very impressive on paper and beats Mustang performance in just about every category by a fairly wide margin.

It's anybody's guess whether Canada will solve their slow sales issue. If the problem was lack of performance, then Canada should be a big help. If it was lousy marketing, it can help fix that too. If it was that a $3 million, four-seater jet is too expensive for most owner/pilots and too small for most commercial operators, then it won't solve their problems.

The Eclipse is a real nice plane for the right mission, and you can find nice examples used today for well under $1 million. That's a big problem for them. Canada is supposed to fix that by differentiating the new product better from the used ones.

Ken

Does anyone know if Eclipse can certify the Canada under the existing type certificate? I don't think so because it appears to be a totally different airplane rather than a modification. Different design, engines, heavier, etc. I'm not even sure Beech could use the same type for a V-35 and make an A36 today without total recertification.

If they have to totally recertify the Canada it might turn into a $300++ million project which may make the difference in it actually happening.

Time will tell.

In case you haven't noticed, beech does indeed build A36's today

Their plan is to do the Canada changes all by STC. The Canada, as Ken says on paper, is a very compelling airplane for 1-4 people because of its operating costs, Garmin avionics, speed and now with larger engines and more fuel class winning range. The problem is that its a tiny company, with a very uneven reputation, weak service distribution (in comparison to all their competitors) and a price at which you can have many other options. Once you get to the point of plunking down $3.5 million on a jet you're buying the eco system too and a half million dollars, or even a million, is less important than the ecosystem.

I can see that, since they have apparently produced the last of the 550's (or should be getting close), and have sold their stock of certified used planes to Canada position holders that they don't need all the factory staff that they had a month ago. Maybe that's why they're cutting back. But, a well capitalized company, planning a major product DELIVERY in the next 12-18 months (which is what they promised last summer when they were promoting the Canada to early adopters) would not likely be taking the chance that their skilled workforce would object to being laid off and go elsewhere. I see their spin but I don't believe it.

I hope they make it and I hope Canada is a success. They've tried in the last couple of years to clean up their act and there are a lot of good people who work there. But I don't frequent casinos either.

In case you haven't noticed, beech does indeed build A36's today