BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 14 Jul 2017, 13:46

I too am weighing these options.

My last annual was in the territory that I thought I should be flying a TBM.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Jul 2017, 18:12

Username Protected wrote:

Trust me, I love the TBM. I wish I had one, but I cannot afford it.

Gerry my good friend, you just lost ALL my trust

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Jul 2017, 01:52

What plane..?

Joshua,

what I may suggest, while it may not fit every mission…but payload wise, decent speed, easy handling manners, safe upgrade for a lower time pilot, in the US probably also associated lower insurance rates..…?

have you looked into a nice used Cessna Caravan..? You can even get one with, or have a small potty installed in the rear..it may fit into your purchasing budget..lots of room…excellent payload capability...

OK, unpressurized..but so what…?

very predictable & manageable maintenance budget, relatively low hourly costs…very reliable single PT6…

IMHO lower ops costs than any bigger piston twin…and a lot safer too…

simple landing gear…always down…

very stable IFR platform...

very safe and easy to fly...

flies like a C-206….

in short, a lot more airplane for the money than may appear at first sight….( very decent birds either a bit older, but even fairly newer G1000 birds with low hours can be found anywhere in between 1 - 1.5 Mio USD depending on preferences…AND most importantly, will usually keep their value, a bit like a PC 12…in regards to residual values...

Gerd

just saying…

two very nicely done videos…

[youtube]https://youtu.be/v0lIauLsLCA[/youtube]

[youtube]https://youtu.be/oonqutlAtqE[/youtube]

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Jul 2017, 07:45

My buddy's tbm 850 annual... $106,000 which incl a 10 year inspection (saw a pic of the tail feathers removed). Damn generator continues to trip and no one can figure it out post six figure annual.

Love to fly a tbm but am reminded there are benefits to having a 'simple' plane.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Jul 2017, 09:36

Username Protected wrote:

What plane..?

Joshua,

what I may suggest, while it may not fit every mission…but payload wise, decent speed, easy handling manners, safe upgrade for a lower time pilot, in the US probably also associated lower insurance rates..…?

have you looked into a nice used Cessna Caravan..? You can even get one with, or have a small potty installed in the rear..it may fit into your purchasing budget..lots of room…excellent payload capability...

OK, unpressurized..but so what…?

very predictable & manageable maintenance budget, relatively low hourly costs…very reliable single PT6…

IMHO lower ops costs than any bigger piston twin…and a lot safer too…

simple landing gear…always down…

very stable IFR platform...

very safe and easy to fly...

flies like a C-206….

in short, a lot more airplane for the money than may appear at first sight….( very decent birds either a bit older, but even fairly newer G1000 birds with low hours can be found anywhere in between 1 - 1.5 Mio USD depending on preferences…AND most importantly, will usually keep their value, a bit like a PC 12…in regards to residual values...

Gerd

just saying…

two very nicely done videos…

[youtube]https://youtu.be/v0lIauLsLCA[/youtube]

[youtube]https://youtu.be/oonqutlAtqE[/youtube]

My brother used to try and talk me into a Caravan. I just can't get past no pressure going 175+ ktas buring 58 gph... I don't look at that as relatively cheep to run, but that's my opinion of course.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Jul 2017, 11:08

Username Protected wrote:

My brother used to try and talk me into a Caravan. I just can't get past no pressure going 175+ ktas buring 58 gph... I don't look at that as relatively cheep to run, but that's my opinion of course.

I'd suggest look at the total numbers and the balance of what an airplane can do for you…

forget the gallons per hour…they are not the cost issue…

OK, pressurization…if you want that ( in a certified airplane I mean) you have to spend big bucks...

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Jul 2017, 11:10

Username Protected wrote:

I'd suggest look at the total numbers and the balance of what an airplane can do for you…

forget the gallons per hour…they are not the cost issue…

OK, pressurization…if you want that you have to spend big bucks...

I did, spoke to Caravan owners, the PC12 over 100 hrs per year beats it hands down on total cost of ownership. The caravan is only good for short hops if you're making apples to apples comparisons.

PC12 goes a 100knts faster, has better weather capabilities and carries almost as much.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Jul 2017, 11:56

Username Protected wrote:

did, spoke to Caravan owners, the PC12 over 100 hrs per year beats it hands down on total cost of ownership. The caravan is only good for short hops if you're making apples to apples comparisons.

PC12 goes a 100knts faster, has better weather capabilities and carries almost as much.

that again depends on what you want to spend in regards to purchase price…

I know both planes ops costs down to the cent…

If someone wants to spend the better part of 3 Mio USD to get a PC 12…great…perfect plane…

I soneone wants to upgrade from the piston world and wants to spend 1 - 1.5 Mio on a SETP…I'd say, then it may well be a Caravan…

per NM sure the PC 12 on such a leg will beat a Caravan because of the speed diffs…but you do not fly 700NM every week, right, because if you would…then we are into jet territory…not even King Airs anymore...

if you want to fly 700 - 1200 NM "in style" get a Falcon 50EX or "classic" F2000…all depends on what you annual budget allows….

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Jul 2017, 13:14

Username Protected wrote:

that again depends on what you want to spend in regards to purchase price…

I know both planes ops costs down to the cent…

If someone wants to spend the better part of 3 Mio USD to get a PC 12…great…perfect plane…

I soneone wants to upgrade from the piston world and wants to spend 1 - 1.5 Mio on a SETP…I'd say, then it may well be a Caravan…

per NM sure the PC 12 on such a leg will beat a Caravan because of the speed diffs…but you do not fly 700NM every week, right, because if you would…then we are into jet territory…not even King Airs anymore...

if you want to fly 700 - 1200 NM "in style" get a Falcon 50EX or "classic" F2000…all depends on what you annual budget allows….

You can get a damn fine same model year PC12 in the 2.1-2.5MM range. It's the NG's that cost 3MM+.

I fly 700NM legs almost twice a week. I've reviewed both the Phenom 300 and the CJ3.........They're not that much faster over a 700nm leg. The loading and field capabilities of the PC12 have me sticking with it for the time being. The jet step up is not worth the extra hour I save given the simplicity of the PC12.

When I compared the Caravan to the PC12 I did so on a per mile basis, not a per hour. It saved both time and was a wash when comparing total ownership costs.

I came to the conclusion that the Caravan was great for short hops to the islands (Watermaker's uses them exclusively) but not as a personal commuter airplane. The Pilatus gives you pressurization, short field options, speed, and weather options.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Jul 2017, 14:10

Username Protected wrote:

You can get a damn fine same model year PC12 in the 2.1-2.5MM range. It's the NG's that cost 3MM+.

I fly 700NM legs almost twice a week. I've reviewed both the Phenom 300 and the CJ3.........They're not that much faster over a 700nm leg. The loading and field capabilities of the PC12 have me sticking with it for the time being. The jet step up is not worth the extra hour I save given the simplicity of the PC12.

When I compared the Caravan to the PC12 I did so on a per mile basis, not a per hour. It saved both time and was a wash when comparing total ownership costs.

I came to the conclusion that the Caravan was great for short hops to the islands (Watermaker's uses them exclusively) but not as a personal commuter airplane. The Pilatus gives you pressurization, short field options, speed, and weather options.

Michael,

I agree with pretty much everything you said…

however it does make a huge difference if a low time avid flyer wants to fly himself, feel comfortable and safe, and cover ground at the same time with a very simple SETP like a Caravan, have fun and slowly wants to get used to turbines…and you probably will agree that he will be far better off with a Caravan than with ANY piston twin…..

and it does make a huge difference whether one has to shell out 1 - 1.5 Mio USD or 2.5 to 4. Mio USD…huge diff…

the used Caravan buyer today will be the typical PC 12 or TBM buyer 4 years from now…

but in regards to utility the Caravan offers loads..plus a simple airframe, simple systems…and superb reliabilty…

it is a perfect step-up airplane…and so versatile that the folks who I know, who own one, never would part with it….( maybe the reason so few on the market and why the Caravans hold their value so well…)

If money were no object…( and I cannot afford any of these…) I'd have a Caravan for the "shorter legs", maybe a PC 12 for some special stuff…and a Falcon 2000LXS for all other kinds of personal travel…

Gerd

P.S.: and naturally my "Cub" for the real fun…..

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Jul 2017, 14:31

Username Protected wrote:

Hey,

I am PPL (ASEL and AMEL) with IR ticket and around 350 hours PIC over the past 30 years (with a LONG break until 2017). Never owned a plane before, but I am considering an airplane purchase for family travel (NOT corporate), roughly 100 hours per year or so.

Usual mission will likely be 6-700 pounds of people and gear going 700nm or less. I would like the plane to be capable of carrying 1000 pounds of people and gear up to 1200nm in 6 hours. I don't mind a refueling stop, but would like to keep the trip at 6 hours.

I don't have a lot of multi experience and really would prefer a single engine (for insurance issues mostly) if there is a plane that can accomplish this mission. Would prefer a plane with only 6 digits in the price, but if it's 7 digits, the first one better be a $1,xxx,xxx (or the wife might balk). Lower hourly operating cost a plus, obviously.

Piston or turboprop? Mirage or Matrix? TBM or Pilatus overkill? King Air 90? Aerostar? Cessna 340 or 421? Could a Baron or Bo make that time? Probably too much weight for a Bo, right?

Thoughts?

Joshua

Extra 400.

An awful lot of noise on this thread. Entertaining, but let's just answer the man's question.

Oh, the Extra 400 with 3 pilots on board is even safer than with 2!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Jul 2017, 16:34

Username Protected wrote:

From what I understand you cannot get 1000 nm in a Meridian. My instructor was a 10,000hr commercial pilot that flew a Meridian for his boss. They flew 800nm trips regularly to Florida and said that he could not make it non stop 70% of the time with the wind at his tail. Not if you stay strict about your IFR reserves.

560 lbs isn't much. There are a lot of people out there that are naturally big. I'm not big by any means but I'm 190 lbs. Let's say though that every passenger is only 170 lbs on average. If 3 people go that only leaves you 50lbs total for bags. That's not much.

I am speechless that the "pro" pilot couldn't get 800 nm out of a Meridian with a tailwind, even with IFR reserves, should be a slam dunk.

Here is 1100 nm with a little push but not record breaking. The P46T holds 4 hours and 20 minutes worth of fuel at normal power settings. Much more endurance if you pull the power back with a no-wind trade off in distance of 20%, higher with a tail wind less with a headwind.

Would never have an issue with 800 nm and a tailwind. Never.... Did I say never :eek:

Just Fake news

Attachment:

GRB.jpg

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Jul 2017, 18:12

Username Protected wrote:

that again depends on what you want to spend in regards to purchase price…

I know both planes ops costs down to the cent…

If someone wants to spend the better part of 3 Mio USD to get a PC 12…great…perfect plane…

I soneone wants to upgrade from the piston world and wants to spend 1 - 1.5 Mio on a SETP…I'd say, then it may well be a Caravan…

per NM sure the PC 12 on such a leg will beat a Caravan because of the speed diffs…but you do not fly 700NM every week, right, because if you would…then we are into jet territory…not even King Airs anymore...

if you want to fly 700 - 1200 NM "in style" get a Falcon 50EX or "classic" F2000…all depends on what you annual budget allows….

Isn't the Caravan 150 knot airplane? Is it even pressurized? No way Jose.

I fly 700NM every week. What jet should I get that can haul everything too that isn't 2X the price of PC12?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Jul 2017, 18:16

Username Protected wrote:

did, spoke to Caravan owners, the PC12 over 100 hrs per year beats it hands down on total cost of ownership. The caravan is only good for short hops if you're making apples to apples comparisons.

PC12 goes a 100knts faster, has better weather capabilities and carries almost as much.

that again depends on what you want to spend in regards to purchase price…

I know both planes ops costs down to the cent…

If someone wants to spend the better part of 3 Mio USD to get a PC 12…great…perfect plane…

I soneone wants to upgrade from the piston world and wants to spend 1 - 1.5 Mio on a SETP…I'd say, then it may well be a Caravan…

per NM sure the PC 12 on such a leg will beat a Caravan because of the speed diffs…but you do not fly 700NM every week, right, because if you would…then we are into jet territory…not even King Airs anymore...

if you want to fly 700 - 1200 NM "in style" get a Falcon 50EX or "classic" F2000…all depends on what you annual budget allows….

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Jul 2017, 18:20

Username Protected wrote:

You can get a damn fine same model year PC12 in the 2.1-2.5MM range. It's the NG's that cost 3MM+.

I fly 700NM legs almost twice a week. I've reviewed both the Phenom 300 and the CJ3.........They're not that much faster over a 700nm leg. The loading and field capabilities of the PC12 have me sticking with it for the time being. The jet step up is not worth the extra hour I save given the simplicity of the PC12.

When I compared the Caravan to the PC12 I did so on a per mile basis, not a per hour. It saved both time and was a wash when comparing total ownership costs.

I came to the conclusion that the Caravan was great for short hops to the islands (Watermaker's uses them exclusively) but not as a personal commuter airplane. The Pilatus gives you pressurization, short field options, speed, and weather options.

Michael,

I agree with pretty much everything you said…

however it does make a huge difference if a low time avid flyer wants to fly himself, feel comfortable and safe, and cover ground at the same time with a very simple SETP like a Caravan, have fun and slowly wants to get used to turbines…and you probably will agree that he will be far better off with a Caravan than with ANY piston twin…..

and it does make a huge difference whether one has to shell out 1 - 1.5 Mio USD or 2.5 to 4. Mio USD…huge diff…

the used Caravan buyer today will be the typical PC 12 or TBM buyer 4 years from now…

but in regards to utility the Caravan offers loads..plus a simple airframe, simple systems…and superb reliabilty…

it is a perfect step-up airplane…and so versatile that the folks who I know, who own one, never would part with it….( maybe the reason so few on the market and why the Caravans hold their value so well…)

If money were no object…( and I cannot afford any of these…) I'd have a Caravan for the "shorter legs", maybe a PC 12 for some special stuff…and a Falcon 2000LXS for all other kinds of personal travel…

Gerd

P.S.: and naturally my "Cub" for the real fun…..

What plane am I describing?