Route: EGNE N0197F180 PEDIG M605 DTY L10 DVR L9 KONAN L607 GOLEX Y50 REM B3 VATRI T11 SOMDA A6 DJL DJL6S LSGG
Validation:
NO ERRORS
Route charges: 206.62 € (including 15.46 € VAT)
Warning: DEST SLOT required
Flight crosses EU borders
Flight crosses Schengen borders
GAR form required PN 24h gov.uk/government/..


https://www.gva.ch/en/Portaldata/1/Reso ... GVA_en.pdf

Geneva is a major airport, smaller airports are simpler.cheaper.

Expect direct clearances in the air eliminating at least half of the waypoints.
This is a quick try with Autorouter, set up for an A36TN to Geneva. Lausanne and Sion are VFR destinations (for me) after cloudbreak at Geneva. ATC route charges don't apply below 2 metric tonnes. I have flown the route from L607 onwards to LSGG many dozens of times. Charges for landing and parking will be published on the airport webpage. Calling the ops office at the airport would clear out any further questions.

I did some flying in Europe years ago when I lived there. Flew Zlins and a turbo 182RG. It was fun for a few trips, but there were always the big unknowns in regards to fees and procedures. For instance in and out of Prague dealing with a handler and security took and hour just to get to the plane, then wait while it was fueled. Not to mention the fees which were not cheap. I found it far easier and cheaper to take an airline. Many have some darned cheap fares.

Michael,

Help change my "attitude". Can you fully plan a flight for me?

Flying MU2 with no noise certificate. Departing Thursday 5 pm EGNE, to one of LSGG, LSGL, or LSGS, 2 people, US citizens. Returning to EGNE late Sunday (3 nights parking). Intended actual destination is Aigle, Switzerland to visit friends.

Find specific answers (as in which vendors, costs, limitations, etc) to the following:

Which airport?

Approach fees?

Landing fees?

Noise fines/fees?

Parking fees? Which FBO?

Fuel cost? Which providers?

Handler cost, if any?

Any other fees?

How to arrange customs?

Acceptable route?

Rental car? Any issues with US driver's license?

IFR routing outbound? How to pick up assuming low IMC?

IFR routing return? How to pick up assuming low IMC?

Alternates in case of bad weather?

I asked for such an example here on BT and on EuroGA, and no one did it. I'd learn a lot from a specific example, so help me out.

Mike C.

Maybe so, but here is an example from France of a UK aircraft accident:

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=131493

In the US, he gets a clearance on the ground and never has to wander around at low altitude trying to contact ATC.

I worry about departing into class G IMC, being altitude and laterally squeezed into a small space, avoiding terrain, and trying to contact ATC. The MU2 covers ground and altitude really fast and the first 5 minutes after takeoff are the busiest time.

My weekend trips have high pressure for return Sunday night. I am completely comfortable with this in the US, but European IFR flying seems to involve substantially more VFR operations at each end which makes the weather a bigger factor.

Mike C.

Maybe so, but here is an example from France of a UK aircraft accident:

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=131493

In the US, he gets a clearance on the ground and never has to wander around at low altitude trying to contact ATC.

I worry about departing into class G IMC, being altitude and laterally squeezed into a small space, avoiding terrain, and trying to contact ATC. The MU2 covers ground and altitude really fast and the first 5 minutes after takeoff are the busiest time.

My weekend trips have high pressure for return Sunday night. I am completely comfortable with this in the US, but European IFR flying seems to involve substantially more VFR operations at each end which makes the weather a bigger factor.

Mike C.

My apologies for not responding sooner, been traveling. I would like to go through a flight.


What I learned is that there is no noise certificate for my airplane. What I can do is show them a chart with a number in it, for an airplane almost like mine, but not quite, which is just below the noise level they require, and hope that is enough. I have reports both ways, some saying it works to show the chart, some saying it doesn't.

You make it sound like I have a problem not selectively believing some folks and discounting others. Objectively considering all the input you get means you can't just believe the ones you like.


I wanted just ONE example with SPECIFICS. I have a mountain of people telling me how easy it is, not ONE example of all the data.

So I proposed a very specific flight and I wanted to see what the real numbers were for this flight. What was it going to cost, what arrangements had to be made, which airports/vendors do I deal with, etc.


I have been unsuccessful researching this stuff online.

If it is so easy, please show me the numbers.

I'll pay $100 to someone to fully plan my example flight with all of the details.


Great! Show me how with full specifics. $100 awaits.

Mike C.

Questions:

Decode "N0197F180" and "DJL6S". I am not familiar with that notation.

How do I fly from EGNE to PEDIG, 42 nm? That cuts across EGNX airspace and it looks like I would have to fly under 2500 ft MSL (and a small detour around a corner that goes to SFC). I presume I can't fly over it at > 10,500 ft since that must be class A by that time. Where/when do I become IFR?

Likewise, how do I fly the 75 nm from DJL to LSGG? Also airspace there which makes it difficult to proceed VFR or even IFR in class G.

What altitude and airspeed were used in creating this flight plan? What works for a piston aircraft doesn't necessarily work for a turboprop flown in the mid 20s.

The great circle is 504 nm and this route decodes as 588 nm, or 17% longer. This seems typical for the routes I have seen, but would be considered excessive in the US, of course.

To fully decode the route took 14 waypoints, not counting the unknowns at each end I could not figure out. Going to be a lot of knob twisting.


After about 2-3 hours of reading it and research, I get:

Passenger charges: Two private passengers: CHF 13.85 each, CHF 27.70 total

Parking charges: 5 tons, 3 days: CHF 5 per ton/day, CHF 75 total

Landing charge: CHF 55

Noise charge: CHF 7 per ton for the worst class, CHF 35.

Emission charge: (took almost an hour to calculate this) 0.2 x 2 engines x CHF 1.40, CHF 0.56 (?).

ATC control charge: CHF 67.30

Assuming I got all that right, CHF 261, About $270 US.

That is not actually terrible. It does not include fuel, handler, and probably many other things.

If I land after 10 pm, it can cost up to $400 more, $1500 if you land after midnight. Ouch.

I am convinced something is wrong with the emission charge.


I got the route charge thing figured out. Roughly $125/hour for my airplane give or take.

I could not figure out the cost of fuel. WFS says $1.47/gallon (!!), but a CHF 90 fee for uplift. Something tells me the cost is much more than that.

I have not done a similar analysis at other airports in the area which could be preferred over LSGG.

This process is exhausting.

Mike C.

Fundamentally, you are admitting that IFR in Europe is not nearly as useful as it is in the US, and thus requires an "attitude" which does not expect the same utility, safety, simplicity, or economy.


Don't hate me for making that decision.

The TGV, Eurostar, and local airlines will allow us to travel.

But I will find a way to fly in Europe, which is not the same as travel by GA in Europe. Now I am looking for something VFR, slow, fun, etc.

Mike C.

Fundamentally, you are admitting that IFR in Europe is not nearly as useful as it is in the US, and thus requires an "attitude" which does not expect the same utility, safety, simplicity, or economy.


Don't hate me for making that decision.

The TGV, Eurostar, and local airlines will allow us to travel.

But I will find a way to fly in Europe, which is not the same as travel by GA in Europe. Now I am looking for something VFR, slow, fun, etc.

Mike C.

Decode "N0197F180" and "DJL6S". I am not familiar with that notation.

The first is TAS and a Flight Level change in the planned route. The last one is the STAR into Geneva.
For Aigle in Switzerland, your best bet would be LSGL and a train or rental car. Plan LSGG as alternate and for cloudbreak with a VFR flight over the lake to LSGL.

Bex is even closer but I never flew in there.
Doing an Alpine flight with a local pilot is certainly recommended.

I often have a flight level/speed change notation in my flightplan, but it is always prefixed by a waypoint at which it occurs (VAROM/N0290F260). I have not used it stand alone without a waypoint attached.

This can happen for various reasons but I use it when on an airway that changes directions (easterly-westerly) causing me to change level.

N0197F180 in the beginning of the route (after the departure airport) gives the planned altitude/flight level and TAS.

Level changes during the route are always combined with a waypoint e.g. UPALA/N0180F180

So how is TAS and FL/ALTITIDE box info (field 15) used in Europe? Where I have flown the speeds/alts given in the seperate boxes in field 15 are the initial cruise alts and speeds. Afterwards only changes to the initial are shown in the route field.

So how is TAS and FL/ALTITIDE box info (field 15) used in Europe? Where I have flown the speeds/alts given in the seperate boxes in field 15 are the initial cruise alts and speeds. Afterwards only changes to the initial are shown in the route field.

Okay, so is that:

197 KIAS

197 KTAS

19,700 ft

180 KIAS

180 KTAS

18,000 ft

???

Still confused how to decode.

For an MU2, the expected speed would be 290 KTAS, expected altitude would be FL230-270. One expects those numbers would change the route validity.

Mike C.