I get what Chip is saying. I don't know CJ4 and KA350 numbers very well, but I do understand how total time differences can change the comparison outcome in favor of the jet. Plus, a KA isn't cheap to keep in the air either.

Your post says $315/hour for the engines.

Still less per mile.

The large block PT6 are not cheap...

Mike C.

Is there a good reason not to include the Sierra Super S-II in this discussion? It's close to the CJ4 in most specifications (except acquisition cost.)

http://www.sijet.com/download/Sierra_20 ... pdf?inline

I think there are very few in the wild.

It is, I don't know enough about it to know what the actual maintenance cost are, that's where the CJ's shine... they are super simple, easy to maintain and have a lot fewer parts and pieces than the legacy Citations.

After a few years of operating both I know for certain that more money has been spent running the CJ and I have the more fuel efficient CJ3.
One thing I think we can agree on is that whatever the CJ costs, it is worth it over the King Air. Still too much ancient technology in that plane, it should have fadec and automatic pressurization by now like CJs have had for years. I feel like my workload is way less in the Jet and weather is less of a concern so that's worth something.

I know of 9 examples of Super SII.

There are a few Super II as well.

Most Sierra FJ44 conversions are 501s (~40 or so).

Mike C.

I don't doubt that you spend more money on the jet in a year, but it probably travels more miles. The King Air obviously cost less per hour, but it's 140 kts slower!

We have been studying CJ1 operating cost for the last two weeks and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that little airplane isn't much more to operate than a King Air 90 and when you bring in the cost of overhauls it beats the heck out of a 350.

Will it cost more in fuel to use the jet, sure. I've been pouring over real maintenance invoices on two different samples, four years of maintenance, the CJ1 is as cheap to maintain as a King Air and the engines are cheaper per hour than the -60A's

The extra fuel isn't as bad as it seems because of the speed... add in wind and weather like Mike said... my beloved King Airs aren't as economical as I have claimed for 15 years.

Just curious, what is your hourly on the CJ3?

I'm constantly checking these numbers, as you saw earlier in this post JetNet's numbers are way off. The info from ACC is better, and I do have CJ3 numbers from one operator but I'd like to know what you're seeing.

I don't have a horse in this race, but I will add that after a number of years mostly flying Citations I took job flying a KA350 and a Citation. What I noticed most in the 350 was that on days with icing or thunderstorms, the performance/time penalty to the 350 was much greater than in most all the jets I had flown. On shorter flights (under 350 miles) it wasn't uncommon to be imc in the mid to high twenties where it may be isa +5 to +10 with the ice vanes on. Cruise speed penalty may have only been 20-25kts or so but the kicker was that due to torque/temp penalty the climb became anemic. In the summer if facing a line of thunderstorms here in the midwest what was a minor inconvenience in the jet became a painful exercise in detours flying the King Air. On a trip once from Tyler, TX, to Norman, OK, I had to go southwest of Austin to get around the weather. If I had been in a CJ2+, 3 or 4, I would have climbed to FL430 or 450 and gone over it. The 350 is a great airplane and a fantastic load hauler. But, when I'm in a jet, I'm really only worried about weather in the terminal area and the passengers get a much better ride.

Bryan

There isn't a 140kt difference in block speed on the shorter flights. That's what you're not getting and one reason why your numbers don't reflect real world costs. Yes, the CJ4 is that much faster in level cruise once you get it into the 30's but if you don't get it up there and keep it there for a while the block speed is much lower.

It has been my experience that fuel cost per mile in a CJ1 is more than the CJ3 since it can't climb to efficient altitudes nearly as fast and is much slower. I see about 750pph at FL450 in the CJ3 at 410kts vs 700pph in the CJ1 at FL370 using 700pph doing 350kts. Plus the CJ3 will be at FL450 long before the CJ1 reaches FL370. So there is some real data you may want to include in your CJ1 research. The CJ1 burns more than a CJ3, which burns more per mile than the 350 on any trip less than about 600nm. On my 275nm trip, which I've probably done over a hundred times between the 2 planes, I always burn around 250 gallons round trip in the 350 and 320 gallons in the CJ3. The CJ4 is a bit more, but I've only flown this route in one of those a few times so I have less accurate data for that one. Last time it was 380 gallons if I remember correctly.

I am seeing the biggest difference between them in maintenance costs. Because of the Williams engines that can only be touched by Cessna, the proparts program and the fact that not many other shops are equipped to service the avionics you are forced to use Cessna for maintenance. There are a ton more options if you own a King Air. I just picked the CJ up from the shop today. $292.50 labor to replace a bolt on the steps, a 5 min job. $1700 labor to cap check and then replace the battery. $5300 labor to troubleshoot and fix a heat issue that turned out to just be disconnected plug. This is why a CJ is going to cost you more. Forget about the fuel burn, the real money difference is in Maintenance. I can do a phase 1-4 and all 5 year items on a King Air for less than an average year of maintenance in the CJ. I don't track it closely but the hourly cost on the CJ is probably $2000 at 200 hours per year if you include fixed costs. My Doc 22 is due later this year so I'm budgeting $150K for maintenance in 2017. I'm already over 20K YTD and haven't done anything major to the plane yet.

This is conventional wisdom and it was true with the legacy jets, but it isn't the case any longer. These little CJ's are running right there with the King Airs.

If you consider payload the King Air 350 wins out big time, but as far as point A to point B these CJ / CJ1's are pretty hard to beat.

Even the Premier stacks up really well against a King Air...

Don't forget that those -60A's are not free... they cost $290 an hour and the FJ44's only cost $268

I have lots of experience operating a king air 300/350. Only flown a CJ4 a few trips and as you would expect the CJ4 is the hands down the performance winner. Great climber, fast, easy to fly. Boys it's a JET and it costs money. A new pair of big girl panties might in order!

Old and cheap gets you a worn out 40 year old rice rocket.

[quote="Clay Smith] I am seeing the biggest difference between them in maintenance costs. Because of the Williams engines that can only be touched by Cessna, the proparts program and the fact that not many other shops are equipped to service the avionics you are forced to use Cessna for maintenance. There are a ton more options if you own a King Air. I just picked the CJ up from the shop today. $292.50 labor to replace a bolt on the steps, a 5 min job. $1700 labor to cap check and then replace the battery. $5300 labor to troubleshoot and fix a heat issue that turned out to just be disconnected plug. This is why a CJ is going to cost you more. Forget about the fuel burn, the real money difference is in Maintenance. I can do a phase 1-4 and all 5 year items on a King Air for less than an average year of maintenance in the CJ. I don't track it closely but the hourly cost on the CJ is probably $2000 at 200 hours per year if you include fixed costs. My Doc 22 is due later this year so I'm budgeting $150K for maintenance in 2017. I'm already over 20K YTD and haven't done anything major to the plane yet.[/quote]

TAP doesn't force you to go to Cessna, the hourly cost of operating a -60A is more than a CJ1 on TAP Blue.

There are just as many good options with a CJ as there is a King Air... ProParts doesn't make you use Citation Service Centers (ProTect does)

If you are budegeting $150k for a Doc 22 we need to talk. Is that Cessna? I have never seen a Doc 10 / 22 run that much.

You're flying 39 right? It is old, but still? That seems high.

Name one Williams service center within 1000 miles of here. In Texas, your only option is Cessna. Sierra is an authorized service center for the FJ44-3A, but only if it's installed on one of their upgraded planes. Can't touch it if it's on a CJ according to Williams. So yes I'm forced to go to Cessna unless I want to fly 2 or 3 hours each way to a shop like Duncan or West Star. You are correct that pro parts doesn't require you to go to a service center but it's more of a hassle if you don't. I've tried to find cheaper ways of doing this but it just isn't practical to fly halfway across the country every time I need it worked on.

150K is my budget for the entire year. I expect the Doc 22 to approach 100K. I'm paying 50K to proparts and including that in my maintenance budget also. I will already have spent 30K on sqwauks and smaller Docs by the time my Doc 22 is due. My estimate could be a bit low. Yes I have an older one that will cost more than a new plane but this is still ridiculous. A 25 year old KA350 would still cost less to maintain.