01 Jan 2026, 12:36 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 05 Feb 2021, 19:29 |
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Joined: 05/01/14 Posts: 9816 Post Likes: +16796 Location: Операционный офис КГБ
Aircraft: TU-104
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Username Protected wrote: Mark, I had a conversation recently with Piaggio about the polished leading edge SB. If you read the bulletin, it is very specific about filling the gap behind the leading edge cuff. I know yours didn’t have polished edges to begin with, did the paint shop perform the bulletin, or just not paint the leading edges? I still would find more than a 3-5 KT difference hard to believe. Piaggio engineers resisted allowing the leading edges to be polished for years citing performance degradation. I can feel a ridge behind the leading edge but it is VERY small. About the half thickness of aircraft .034 aluminum maybe or even less. I cant believe this could cost me 10 - 20 knots. I suspect my engines are down on power being this close to overhaul.
When you have a laminar flow wing like the Avanti, it’s surprising how little it takes to disrupt it. 10 knots is a lot, but it’s not a big percentage at the speeds you are talking about, so it is not outside the realm of what I think might be possible.
_________________ Be kinder than I am. It’s a low bar. Flight suits = superior knowledge
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 05 Feb 2021, 20:26 |
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Joined: 04/20/15 Posts: 675 Post Likes: +377 Location: KFAT
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Username Protected wrote: Flew home yesterday from Charleston to Dallas Addison,,, 900 nautical. Barely made it with 620 lbs reserve (my personal minimum is 600 lbs).
Of course the 125 knot headwind didn't help lol.
Once concern of mine is that it seems to be slower than most other Piaggio out there. At 380, zero ISA and temps at 810 degrees all I can seem to get out of her was 350 knots. 20 knots slow..
On the way out I checked my speed against the book and found a 15 knot difference ...
Hmmm.
Airplane is new paint and clean as a whistle but has the polished leading edges and there is a tiny ridge perceptible when you run your finger over it....I dont think that will cause a 20 knot speed reduction but who knows?
Wonder if my engines at 3300 TT have anything to do with it? 300 more hours until new ones. cant wait (yes I am on a program lol). Mark, I don't have a P180 AFM handy. Are you setting power based on torque tables or an ITT limit?
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 06 Feb 2021, 13:53 |
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Joined: 01/12/10 Posts: 593 Post Likes: +1083 Location: Dallas, Texas
Aircraft: Piaggio P180, T-6
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Username Protected wrote: My opinion is next to worthless....99% wing.... .1% power
1450 shaft horsepower engines derated to 850. Made to fly 8,000 hours...Pratt gets to be Pratt
I got in the tiniest coating of ice on my Columbia 350 more than once. Lost 8-10 knots airspeed then slowly watched airspeed climb back up as ice sublimated.
Clean wing on Avanti is more important than other airplanes for speed.
School for next two weeks then I need more training flights. I'll meet you in CHS to compare wings ( I also have polished leading edges) then follow you 1/4 way back to Dallas at same FL for speed comparison That sounds like a GREAT idea. I am in Charleston 15th through 19th so it should work out about right... I park at Signature at CHS btw. Look forward to it!
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 07 Feb 2021, 02:26 |
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Joined: 04/20/15 Posts: 675 Post Likes: +377 Location: KFAT
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Username Protected wrote: "Mark, I don't have a P180 AFM handy. Are you setting power based on torque tables or an ITT limit? I fly high so its always ITT limit... the engines temp out in the high 20s and I typically fly at 800 - 810 degrees ITT at FL 330 - FL 390 depending on ISA variance. I climb at 99% torque until the temps get to 800 then just adjust accordingly to maintain them in this range.[/quote] I follow what you're doing on technique, but torque tables would tell you how much power you should be producing at altitude/temp with corresponding fuel flow and speed. Curious if the tables are there. 20 knots would eat my soul! I'd rule that out before chasing flight surface imperfections.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 08 Feb 2021, 15:08 |
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Joined: 01/12/10 Posts: 593 Post Likes: +1083 Location: Dallas, Texas
Aircraft: Piaggio P180, T-6
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Username Protected wrote: The polished leading edges lose you at least 10 knots. There should be no ridge. If there is, big speed loss.
Speed tape anywhere is another 5 - 10. Mine had speed tape on the inboard leading edges when I bought it. 9 knots.
How polished is your paint? Ceramic coating my entire front end got me a few knots.
Repainting my leading edges and polishing them for me a few knots too.
I can beat book speeds running at 780 temps but my fuel flows are higher.
Saying it is a 1000 mile plane means a cj2 is a 1000 mile plane. The range on both is very similar from what I can tell. I assume the cj2 FF profile is just as accurate as Piaggio one. Reality is neither can do 1000 miles into 120kt headwinds and have real alternate requirements or get dropped down low on arrival.
Range and turbines is dependent on so many variables. I have realized if I want to do 1300nm ALL THE TIME I need a plane with a published 2000nm range and even then I can get hosed if the entire Midwest is low IFR, which happens frequently enough that I have personally had to flight plan around it 4 times over the last 7 years. Yeah going to repaint the leading edges when I change my N number this year. They aren’t pretty enough for 10 friggin’ knots!
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 08 Feb 2021, 17:11 |
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Joined: 04/20/15 Posts: 675 Post Likes: +377 Location: KFAT
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Username Protected wrote: The couple of times I have checked the torque values seem spot on.... Then check off that box. The engines are happy and shouldn't be the cause. Looks like the leading edges are the next step. I'd want to keep a spray bottle and rag with me just so each bug doesn't get to steal their knot
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 08 Feb 2021, 20:26 |
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Joined: 03/03/11 Posts: 2098 Post Likes: +2208
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
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Username Protected wrote: I plan to repaint my leading edges as well sometime this year and also to ceramic coat. I wish I could ceramic coat the props to make it easier to clean them... If u ever repaint props ceramic coat them then. Would be impossible to get them once engine belches oil all over them.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 15 Feb 2021, 02:07 |
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Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6674 Post Likes: +5978 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Aerostar Superstar 2
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Username Protected wrote: phun begins tomorrow Simulator...Will be my first sim experience Charlotte to Palm Beach Florida this afternoon. Would not have been a good day in the low/mid 20's in Aerostar Still had this little kiss of ice on engine boots after finally breaking out at FL360 Brad, how much is FS training? They refused me back in the days when I had money to spare, as I didn't have a CPL. Kinda pissed me off a little, as it made them feel like 135 shills and "if you're not a charter pilot, you're not welcome", but I get it. They're trying to keep a certain standard. SimCom doesn't care, so that's where I went for the Turbo Commander training.
_________________ "Either we heal now as a team, or we will die as individuals."
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