What is the advantage of his strategy over NetJets?

Paying you, the shop, the overheads, the cost of capital, it doesn't seem like he is saving any money over frax.

With NetJets, he won't have down time, AOG, etc. if his time is so valuable, why not improve it by going frax?

For me, the answer is obvious, I can beat NetJets cost by huge margin, but that comes with my involvement.

Mike C.

What is the advantage of his strategy over NetJets?

Paying you, the shop, the overheads, the cost of capital, it doesn't seem like he is saving any money over frax.

With NetJets, he won't have down time, AOG, etc. if his time is so valuable, why not improve it by going frax?

For me, the answer is obvious, I can beat NetJets cost by huge margin, but that comes with my involvement.

Mike C.

Chip - there’s something else missing. The difference seems also to be the fact that most people trust their shop to make the best decision to buy parts to support their work. Or at least do the work to research and to offer customer the options. If you asked your local mechanic if he could support his business without parts sales, I’m pretty sure the answer would be no. And that’s why most shops require owner provided parts to include a fee to cover the risk of installing those parts and the support, such as warranty and troubleshooting complications that often arise. And it’s ok for them to make some money. Frankly, I want them to make money so they are there to support me when needed.

I just went through this with my 1976 690A. The guys working on it knew I could provide parts new or used on 3 components and asked if I would like to provide instead of their overhauls on the shelf. About $10k in a pressure controller and a couple actuators. I said no, you put your parts on it and you fix it, that’s why I brought it here. And so I picked it up, paid the bill and it worked out fine. I’ll sell my parts to someone else or myself when we do the work. Just my way of doing business. Of course maybe I spend too much.

Chip - there’s something else missing. The difference seems also to be the fact that most people trust their shop to make the best decision to buy parts to support their work. Or at least do the work to research and to offer customer the options. If you asked your local mechanic if he could support his business without parts sales, I’m pretty sure the answer would be no. And that’s why most shops require owner provided parts to include a fee to cover the risk of installing those parts and the support, such as warranty and troubleshooting complications that often arise. And it’s ok for them to make some money. Frankly, I want them to make money so they are there to support me when needed.

I just went through this with my 1976 690A. The guys working on it knew I could provide parts new or used on 3 components and asked if I would like to provide instead of their overhauls on the shelf. About $10k in a pressure controller and a couple actuators. I said no, you put your parts on it and you fix it, that’s why I brought it here. And so I picked it up, paid the bill and it worked out fine. I’ll sell my parts to someone else or myself when we do the work. Just my way of doing business. Of course maybe I spend too much.

Definitely wins the fuel cost per mile debate.

Now about that capital expense....

Not really an option for a Duke owner to think about where as the 501 is at least within some reach.


You have to take it apart every year? Bummer.

Mike C.

You seemed pretty clear about it earlier in the thread:


So if others can do it, then my data is valid, and I am not misleading anyone.

Mike C.

Factory service centers love owners who think like this.

In fact, they are so used to it, that they think they make all the decisions on what work needs to be done on an airplane.

My shop likes me buying my own parts. The money they would make on it by mark up is consumed almost entirely by costs of ordering, handling, inventory, returns, stock space, warranty work, etc.

It is more common to find shops that want to sell you parts, and often will charge you a percentage on top of your parts even if you supply them. I find this to be a conflict of interest, the shop makes more money if they use more parts. This fits with the diagnostic methods they use which usually means first replacing the most expensive part in any system not working right.

I do things for my shop. I fixed their battery cap tester, saving them $4K on a new one. I've bought them tools. I've helped them with various electronic things over the years. They are not suffering due to working with me.

Mike C.

You seemed pretty clear about it earlier in the thread:


So if others can do it, then my data is valid, and I am not misleading anyone.

Mike C.

So if others can do it, then my data is valid, and I am not misleading anyone.

Mike C.

Factory service centers love owners who think like this.

In fact, they are so used to it, that they think they make all the decisions on what work needs to be done on an airplane.

My shop likes me buying my own parts. The money they would make on it by mark up is consumed almost entirely by costs of ordering, handling, inventory, returns, stock space, warranty work, etc.

It is more common to find shops that want to sell you parts, and often will charge you a percentage on top of your parts even if you supply them. I find this to be a conflict of interest, the shop makes more money if they use more parts. This fits with the diagnostic methods they use which usually means first replacing the most expensive part in any system not working right.

I do things for my shop. I fixed their battery cap tester, saving them $4K on a new one. I've bought them tools. I've helped them with various electronic things over the years. They are not suffering due to working with me.

Mike C.

Yes, and they can clearly read that my numbers I post are exactly what I spend, nothing more, nothing less. They are free to add any reserves they want to the numbers, however they want to compute that.

That is not misleading, it is being honest and exact with hard verifiable data.

Mike C.

No I didn’t read all the posts.

If I’m given the choice between getting on a plane with Mike C as pilot and someone I don’t know - I’m jumping in with Mike every time. I had the pleasure of a ride many moons ago in his MU2. I don’t believe there are many pilots (pro or otherwise) who know their aircraft the way Mike does. I’d bet if the SHTF Mike would be able to work through things faster than most.

The 300 is one sexy machine, but I’d rather have an A player in the left seat…..

Peace,
Don

Maintenance involves judgment of many things and if the shop profits from that judgment, then that meets the precise definition of a conflict of interest.

In an ideal world, yes, you want the judgment of that part to be uninfluenced by those factors, but I've seen far too many such cases to be that naive.

An example that often occurs is core charges. You buy an exchange with a hefty core charge and you expect to get the core charge back. But no, the shop can reduce the refund entirely at their discretion and there is nothing you can do about it. When I ask for criteria for charge back, no shop have ever given me anything specific, only vague "normal wear and tear", whatever that is. When I ask for documentation of the deficiencies, I never get anything, either. So beware when there is a hefty core charge, that is giving the shop a blank check they can write and they only need a vague excuse for that.

This is one of the reasons I don't like exchange and prefer to have my own unit overhauled (if I have the time) or buy a used one outright. I then have a core I can try to overhaul later and have a spare.

Mike C.

NetJets Card275 is $215,000 for 25 hours in a P300 with 90 blackout days per year.

50 hours thus costs $430,000 and you fly only on off peak days. Want only 45 blackout dates, Card320? That's $560,000 for 50 hours.

I had no idea how expensive frax was. Why is that?

You could buy a 501, fly it 100 hours, and scrap it every year for the cost of 100 hours on NetJets. And you can fly it on any day!

It is hard to imagine any scenario where frax is the most economical option.

Mike C.

NetJets Card275 is $215,000 for 25 hours in a P300 with 90 blackout days per year.

50 hours thus costs $430,000 and you fly only on off peak days. Want only 45 blackout dates, Card320? That's $560,000 for 50 hours.

I had no idea how expensive frax was. Why is that?

You could buy a 501, fly it 100 hours, and scrap it every year for the cost of 100 hours on NetJets. And you can fly it on any day!

It is hard to imagine any scenario where frax is the most economical option.

Mike C.