Amazing engine design whose durability is affect by writing monthly checks! The metallurgy involved must be fantastic!


But with the risk of changes in terms every 5 years or arbitrary increases in cost every year.

Imagine if Williams says "no engines over 10,000 hours are eligible for TAP any more. Buy new engines." That is completely within their abilities to decide when it comes to contract renewal.

It is easy for Williams to collect money when the engines need little to no work, but as they get older, you can expect Williams to increase prices to restore the profit they expect from these programs.

Mike C.

That's all hypothetically possible, but it's not unique to Williams. Pratt has engines on ESP with 15-20,000 hours from fractionals/ex fractionals that are still on the program at the same rate as everyone else.

Williams engines are 30 years old now on some CJs, but they are not all high time, and there are plenty of new aircraft equipped with Williams engines to offset the higher time engines.

Something to watch, certainly, but I wouldn't be paranoid over it.

-The Citation Jet Exchange

Maybe not, but FJ44 owners are essentially powerless in the relationship with Williams. I've been watching the contract terms gradually erode owner benefits. They now basically force all owners to be on TAP Blue, TAP Elite is gone.

Prediction: 2024 TAP Blue prices will touch $450/hour/aircraft. Williams will claim inflation and supply side material issues, but they can raise prices entirely at their whim.

Nothing any owner can do but pay, or treat their airplane as disposable.

Mike C.

Pratt is NO different!

Pratt has a 5 year contract and the rates escalate annually.

The only difference I see is if you are directly on ESP with Pratt there are no annual minimums.

Williams CJ2+ went from $348/hr in 2022 to $385 in 2023, an increase of $37 or 10.6%

ESP - Pratt on our Excel went from $552 to $626, a $74 increase or 13.4% increase.

Keep carrying on with items you have no experience with, Mike.

-The Citation Jet Exchange

www.citationjetx.com

For PW500 series, yes.

For JT15D, no, there are independent shops, PMA parts, and more used parts in the market. The control is more with the owner and less with Pratt.

The general trend with all aviation things is for manufacturers to control what happens to their products to the detriment of the owners. New stuff has fewer options and more onerous and expensive required maintenance that is defined by business instead of engineering.

Mike C.

I wouldn't hold hands too much with Pratt either - after 60 years of the PT6 there's still not a single source that can tell you what an actual overhaul costs. "We'll tell you the price of the overhaul once it's securely hostaged in the shop" also known as the made-him-an-offer-he-couldn't-refuse business model.

I suspect the jet engines would be treated similarly to the TP once on the stand.

Thanks for clarifying that. Just remember that when comparing airframes, you can't pick and choose accidents unless you do that with all airframes. You know the Meridian as well as anyone, but it is worth mentioning in the fatal Meridian accidents.
-3 of the fatal Meridian accidents were non-instrument rated pilots flying in IMC
-1 was an instrument pilot, VFR in IMC that flew into a mountain.
-2 tangled with Thunderstorms
-2 were pilots with tox screens suggesting impairment
-1 pilot incapacitation.

Take those out of the Meridian record book and it enjoys a safety record equivalent to the biz jet world. But if you just compare apples to apples, you have to take the whole data. In a turbine, it is almost never the plane that causes the accident.

For PW500 series, yes.

For JT15D, no, there are independent shops, PMA parts, and more used parts in the market. The control is more with the owner and less with Pratt.

The general trend with all aviation things is for manufacturers to control what happens to their products to the detriment of the owners. New stuff has fewer options and more onerous and expensive required maintenance that is defined by business instead of engineering.

Mike C.

A lot of you guys are not acknowledging the fact that banks/lenders often REQUIRE engines to be on a program to lend on these types of airplanes, unless there's a substantial portion of the equity taken care of up front

In the low rate environment we operated in for nearly a decade, it likely made a lot of sense to pay as you go on both the loan and thus the engine program, as interest was so low when financing

To be fair, there are some very expensive things inside the engine that are "on condition" and so until they crack the case open they don't know if you're going to be in for a new $50,000 wheel or not.

At least you have options for shops when it comes to the older Pratts. I use an independent shop (RBR out of Dallas) and based on work they've done for me and discussions I have had with them I trust them to do the right thing.

I know, but they don't even offer a price list or scenario-based option. It's just "we'll tell you what it will cost". I mean, no other industry is as obfuscating as aviation.

For the older planes, getting loans is difficult regardless of engine programs.

Of course, the older airplanes are much lower cost, so that isn't as much of an issue. My V was bought for what would hardly be a down payment on a P300 or CJ2/3. That saves interest payments on the loan which can be quite substantial as compared to yearly operating expenses, especially in recent times.

Mike C.

I'm pretty confident that when it comes time for my HSI, RBR will give me ranges based on what could happen once they crack the case.

But, your assertion is wrong. The medical industry is WAY worse. Not only will they bill you whatever they want and will never give you a price for anything ahead of time, if they screw up they will bill you to fix their screwups too. I had 2 friends go for outpatient orthopedic surgery (at Stanford no less) given MRSA infections in the hospital. One almost died and the other nearly lost their leg. Medical system billed their insurance for the rehab when it was 100% their fault. This is the equivalent of your mechanic dropping your car off of a lift and then billing you for the repairs.

Agreed 100% - medical world is actually even worse.

I know, but they don't even offer a price list or scenario-based option. It's just "we'll tell you what it will cost". I mean, no other industry is as obfuscating as aviation.