A wise man on another board (initials WB) once said,

The happiest jet owners are those for whom annual expenses are a rounding error on their net worth.

It cost less, TAP included, to operate a Williams powered Citation than a Legacy bird with Pratt engines.

There is an engine company who has done everything in their power to establish a monopoly, but it isn't Williams. In fact I consider them a monopoly buster and shudder to think what operating a Citation would be like with a Pratt monopoly.

You need look no further than 535 / 545's to see Pratt unchecked.

Williams followed Rolls Royce and Honeywell with what is basically a "power by the hour" program.

At the end of the day we have Pratt, Honeywell, Allison, Rolls Royce, GE... and the newcomer Williams. If they are running such a scam, and making unprecedented profits... why hasn't someone else jumped in the mix?

I know Williams developed engines for cruise missles... Pratt sold engines to power most US manufactured aircraft at an unfair advantage because of the exchange rate... yada yada... same question, where are the other capitalist and why isn't Garmin building engines?

Proparts does not create predictability.

If he needs a lot of parts, he will end up paying for them at some point. That will either be a lump sum when he sells the plane with a negative Proparts balance, or a much higher Proparts hourly fee on renewal. Eventually, all parts cost gets charged to the customer.


There's nothing about Proparts that changes the availability or timeliness of getting parts that I can see. You can buy a new windshield from Textron and have it with the same lead time whether you have Proparts or not. Proparts only affects whether you pay for it in as needed, or you paid for it in monthly payments.

Mike C.

It would be interesting to see an HSI done in the field. I'd observe pretty intently to see where $420,000 goes for a pair of FJ44-3A engines.

Perhaps the "HSI on aircraft" thing is a fantasy (presumably to make it sound inexpensive) that never actually happens because there is always some SB that requires factory return?

Mike C.

Can you convert your general aspersions into specifics? You know, like actual numbers?

I've wondered about the Bravo, 550 with PW530A engines and what the ownership experience is to own those engines.

One person said the PW530A is really a JT15 modernized a bit. The SFC of the PW530A is much better than a JT15D, though, and actually a touch better than an FJ44 in fact, so it seems more fundamentally changed than a rework of a JT15.


Honda could be that next player, especially if they target after market STCs. I would hope for that sort of shake up.

Mike C.

Allen hit the nail on the head. I have TAP and I have Proparts. Each program and its focus is different. Think of these programs as convenience and insurance - and yes evening out cashflows. It is like flying an airplane - if you think you are going to save money flying an airplane over other means of travel you know you are kidding yourself. Want to save money - ride the bus.

Do I have time to be looking for parts to do my next OH or HSI? Do I like surprises every time I walk into an engine inspection? Could I do better on my own financially speaking? Perhaps, but do I have the time?

I contend that engine service may be perceived by some as a rip-off with engine manufacturers "taking advantage" of their captive customers. Their financial statements certainly don't indicate so.

A good friend of mine is the country manager for Safran in Mexico and runs an engine OH facility in Queretaro for the CFM56 engine. He asked me how much I paid for my engine program - $140 per side. Delta, SW, Aeromexico, United, etc. pay about 40% less for their engine programs - Safran also has much higher economies of scale than Williams, and these airlines have a lot more buying power than a single operator. Safran's engine operation has a pre-tax BUOI margin of less than 6%. I don't know how Williams is doing, but engine service is not a dot-com type business.

Nice write up Mike.

Don't EVER trust anything verbal from Williams. I got screwed by them a few years ago. When I bought the Premier in 2009, they agreed to let me go to a 100 hour per year minimum. I had been flying my King Air about 100 hours per year, so 100 hours per year in the Premier, was a lot more flying and I was worried. The salesman said don't worry, we won't charge you if you go below the 100 hours. I think he would have said anything to get me to sign. Shame on me for not getting it in writing. The first year I was around 125 hours. The second year about 100. The third year was just below 100 and no penalty. Then in year number four, I was under the minimum hours and they hit me with the penalty. I argued my case, to no avail. I remember clearly the salesman telling me there would be no penalty. I remember him driving to my facility to get the contract signed and pulling his race boat behind his truck. We talked about his hobby of boat racing quite a bit. Later, when I told Williams the detail about our meeting, they knew who the salesman was, but without getting it in writing, I was SOL.

I'm not a Williams fan now. After many months of arguing this with Williams I got nowhere. I was selling the aircraft and ended up paying the minimum hour fee for 2 years.

After I paid I told them that I would enlighten as many people as I could about how they handled the situation. So unlike Williams, I am a man of my word and I am passing this information on.

My current airplane is NOT Williams powered and I really hope my next airplane is NOT Williams powered either. The 2 leading contenders are Honeywell and Pratt powered!

The happiest jet owners are the ones who figured out to have a jet BEFORE they have that much money.

Mike C.

Not if you include the cost of capital for the generally much more expensive 525s.

Even setting that aside, I'm not sure I agree with you. I have been interviewing owners of legacy Citations for several months now and it doesn't seem particularly more expensive to maintain them than the 525 series. The legacy airplanes spend more in fuel and less in engine fees/work, so hard to tell which is winning there.

Mike C.

What's CASP?

Collins avionics program.

Corporate Aircraft Service Program

Covers Collins avionics. Really worthwhile, when you consider the cost of just one display. Also, our avionics shop enrolled us with the first failure, Collins did the repair even though we were not on the program, as long as we signed up. Not sure if that is true today.

http://www.rockwellcollins.com/Services ... 0F818.ashx

Jeff

Did I read that right, an FJ44 costs $140/hour for its program and a CFM56 costs $84/hour for its program?

How can that be?

CFM56 typical price is $10M/each, FJ44 is about $1M.

Mike C.

Can you convert your general aspersions into specifics? You know, like actual numbers?

I've wondered about the Bravo, 550 with PW530A engines and what the ownership experience is to own those engines.

One person said the PW530A is really a JT15 modernized a bit. The SFC of the PW530A is much better than a JT15D, though, and actually a touch better than an FJ44 in fact, so it seems more fundamentally changed than a rework of a JT15.


Honda could be that next player, especially if they target after market STCs. I would hope for that sort of shake up.

Mike C.

Well, that's already more choice than Williams. Dallas Airmotive says they can service the PW500 series, including HSI and OH.


It is a shame they didn't carry over the S550/560 wing to the Bravo. It would go faster and further. Then you would have a non Williams long range, fast, small cabin Citation with an efficient engine.

Guess that would make the 560 look bad. Sigh, I hate it when companies pessimize their own products.


Would be nice to know reliable numbers for HSI, OH, and ESP for the PW530A.


Why? What makes the Bravo a disposable airplane any more than the 550?


Because that is a far greater market than selling new engines.

The HF120, at 2050 lbf, is too small for most Citations, so they would need to develop something in the 3000 lbf class.

BTW, Honda is targeting 5000 hour TBO and *NO* mid life HSI.


Already some action on using it for retrofits:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... tationjets

Worryingly, this was 2.5 years ago, and nothing appears on the Sierra web site about it, so perhaps this project has died.

Mike C.

Looks like different things fit different folks. For me as a part 91 fella using the plane mostly for personal use and being a bit cost sensitive, it's just not worth the extra money for the predictable costs.
For the folks where dispatch is highly important, with many folks and a very busy schedule, the jet is just a means to an end where they want predictability.

We see the same thing with FBOs. Some cater to the folks that need fast and nice and cost is secondary, others are more cost sensitive. Glad we have choices.