BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 Feb 2021, 03:40

I've been going over the 501 AFM (thanks Mike) and just want to make sure I'm understanding it correctly. For example, in the landing distance table, although it's not explicitly mentioned, is the distance given over a 50' obstacle as FAR 23.75 apparently requires?

And then in the takeoff tables, for example, at 11,850 lbs, sea level, 70 degrees F, zero wind, the takeoff distance is listed as 3,150 feet. If I abort the takeoff at the listed V1 of 97 KIAS, does this mean my accelerate-stop distance (coming to a complete stop) is 3,150 feet per FAR 23.55?

On the other hand, if I lose an engine right after V1 and continue takeoff, will I be at 35 feet above the end of the 3,150 foot runway as FAR 23.59 suggests?

Thanks!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 Feb 2021, 06:18

Username Protected wrote:

I can’t imagine there being any difference in empty weight in similarly equipped 550/551 of the same age.
Why would the 551 be heavier, as stated above?

Robert T

There should not be a difference. See the below SB to change a 550 into a 551.

https://support.cessna.com/custsupt/con ... s_id=11748

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 Feb 2021, 07:05

Username Protected wrote:

I read that at some time it was also possible to change a 500 into a 501. Does anyone know if this is still possible?

I also read that some Citation 500's are certified for single pilot operation without a SPE. Is this true? How does it work?

Maybe you've seen some 500's for sale that are touted as single-pilot. I believe what they mean is single-pilot with an SPE, but maybe I'm missing something here. I was always under the impression that if the serial number starts with 500, you need an SPE.

You mentioned you are in central Europe? Wonder how easy it is to arrange overflight permission when you are flying around Europe. I'm in Kuwait and don't really intend to fly GA from here to Europe as there seems to be a lot of red tape, but I would be interested to know how difficult it would be.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 Feb 2021, 07:18

I was talking to a broker representing a Citation 500 for sale in Spain and when I asked them if I need a SPE to fly it single pilot they said it is "fully SP certified". I guess the meaning of this is unclear.

I don't have any firsthand experience arranging overflight permission. What sort of red tape might exist?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 Feb 2021, 08:03

Username Protected wrote:

I was talking to a broker representing a Citation 500 for sale in Spain and when I asked them if I need a SPE to fly it single pilot they said it is "fully SP certified". I guess the meaning of this is unclear.

I don't have any firsthand experience arranging overflight permission. What sort of red tape might exist?

The red tape is mostly on the Kuwait end, like getting permission to store a plane here. Private GA basically doesn't exist here. Probably for Europe there are several flight handling services that take care of the permits, but kind of curious how much of a hassle/expensive that is.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 Feb 2021, 08:33

It looks like for most European countries no permission is required for overflight: https://www.universalweather.com/blog/o ... uirements/

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 Feb 2021, 13:54

Username Protected wrote:

If amount of paperwork correlates to cost to own, then there is no fracking way a Citation can cost the same as an MU2. I have 30 lbs of MU2 paperwork over 46 years, and 200 lbs of Citation V paperwork over 30 years. The Citation literally generates 10 times the paperwork per year.

Mike C.

Pounds of paperwork per year, or PPW/Y. That's a maintenance metric that I do not believe has been explored! Have you looked into PPW/hr, or PPW/NM? Maybe PPW/megabuck of maintenance? I thought about using the kilobuck, but that would probably be best expressed grPW/kilobuck.

gr=grains. A grain is 1/7000 of a pound.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 Feb 2021, 19:38

I sure remember all that paperwork when I started flying the Citation II! We had to submit a minimum equipment list and I had to be approved by FSDO to fly that specific plane. I don’t have it here, but sure recall going through it. Some folks charge to prepare all that and get it approved. Took about 45 days when I did it. Geesh, that’s not even counting log books.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 Feb 2021, 20:38

@ Mat Perkins
It’s not a K model but it will do .

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 Feb 2021, 21:15

Username Protected wrote:

I've been going over the 501 AFM (thanks Mike) and just want to make sure I'm understanding it correctly. For example, in the landing distance table, although it's not explicitly mentioned, is the distance given over a 50' obstacle as FAR 23.75 apparently requires?

And then in the takeoff tables, for example, at 11,850 lbs, sea level, 70 degrees F, zero wind, the takeoff distance is listed as 3,150 feet. If I abort the takeoff at the listed V1 of 97 KIAS, does this mean my accelerate-stop distance (coming to a complete stop) is 3,150 feet per FAR 23.55?

On the other hand, if I lose an engine right after V1 and continue takeoff, will I be at 35 feet above the end of the 3,150 foot runway as FAR 23.59 suggests?

Thanks!

Simply put, I think that's a yes, yes, and a yes. The takeoff planning gets more complicated when you are hot and high, and have an obstacle that exceeds your climb gradient during first and second segment climb. If that's the case, you need to back down your takeoff weight.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Mar 2021, 01:07

Username Protected wrote:

Pounds of paperwork per year, or PPW/Y. That's a maintenance metric that I do not believe has been explored! Have you looked into PPW/hr, or PPW/NM?

I scale the units to make them more manageable.

PPW per year
MU2: 0.652 lbs
C560V: 6.667 lbs (~10x MU2)

PPW per 1000 hours
MU2: 4.4 lbs
C560V: 20.4 lbs (~4.6x MU2)

PPW per 100,000 nm
MU2: 1.6 lbs
C560V: 5.5 lbs (~3.3x MU2)

Roughly speaking, the MU2 produces a new sheet of paperwork every 620 nm and the C560V produces a new sheet of paperwork every 180 nm. This assumes standard office paper, letter size.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Mar 2021, 01:12

Username Protected wrote:

Pounds of paperwork per year, or PPW/Y. That's a maintenance metric that I do not believe has been explored! Have you looked into PPW/hr, or PPW/NM?

I scale the units to make them more manageable.

PPW per year
MU2: 0.652 lbs
C560V: 6.667 lbs (~10x MU2)

PPW per 1000 hours
MU2: 4.4 lbs
C560V: 20.4 lbs (~4.6x MU2)

PPW per 100,000 nm
MU2: 1.6 lbs
C560V: 5.5 lbs (~3.3x MU2)

Roughly speaking, the MU2 produces a new sheet of paperwork every 620 nm and the C560V produces a new sheet of paperwork every 180 nm. This assumes standard office paper, letter size.

Mike C.