BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Jul 2024, 17:49

Why would anyone do this when they could buy a Citation 501?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Jul 2024, 19:23

Username Protected wrote:

Why would anyone do this when they could buy a Citation 501?

Short field operations, simplicity and maintenance of a single engine operation, fuel consumption at 300+ktas, average airframe age/total time/cycles, etc

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Jul 2024, 21:58

Username Protected wrote:

Why would anyone do this when they could buy a Citation 501?

Short field operations, simplicity and maintenance of a single engine operation, fuel consumption at 300+ktas, average airframe age/total time/cycles, etc

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Jul 2024, 22:23

Username Protected wrote:

TBM Maintenance is worse than a 501, it's slower, this mod plus a 700 is 3.5 times the capital cost of a 501, the short field performance is the same, it's less safe and flies lower and slower. You win on the fuel argument. 501 at 300kts burns 90 GPH, this is probably burning 65. TBM is stuck in the weather

I base my TBM at a 2700' field. Can a 501 do that?

The maintenance is comparable to a 501. I know because I do my own. It doesn't have the advantage of cheap engines though.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Jul 2024, 22:36

Bummer No,
I heard there will be a flap switch so you wont have the 850 mode for takeoff.
If they would offer 900 hp or more at takeoff It would be an option for the 850 as well but it wont happen.
They dont seems to be offering the cowl option at this time.

Username Protected wrote:

Wonder if the STC included testing to takeoff at full power like in the 900s.

I think american aviation was looking at a pitot cowling (hopefully getting rid of the airspeed limitation on inertial separator use?)

Think trade in value could make a nice dent on the $1m purchase price?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 Jul 2024, 16:03

Username Protected wrote:

From what I hear from my P180 friends (same engine), the P&W pricing is so eye-watering that it probably makes it a marginal proposition. On top of that you have to add Blackhawks markup on the STC and conversion and I can't see this being a cent under $2 million. Isn't it just cheaper to sell the 700 and buy a used 850 instead?

But maybe Blackhawk gets OEM pricing that's competitive? Seems to be P&W's MO.

My suspicion is that this conversion makes a good deal of sense if you are facing overhaul and want a faster plane but love your airframe. Otherwise, probably not sensible.

The TBM and Piaggio engines overhaul for between $450-950k each depending on condition and who does the work, though I gather there is a program for the engine that can guarantee like $650k. Of course, there is also ESP Gold where it's on P&W (other than the engine payments).

The TBM is impossible to beat if you you want to get in and out of short fields, want thrust reverse for contaminated runways, yet travel long distances quickly. Amazing capabilities, reliable, simple. If you're willing to use longer runways, you gain a lot of options.

I traded in my TBM or a Piaggio and I love both planes. The Piaggio is an awesome cruiser but it requires another 1500' of runway vs the TBM.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 Jul 2024, 16:23

Username Protected wrote:

From what I hear from my P180 friends (same engine), the P&W pricing is so eye-watering that it probably makes it a marginal proposition. On top of that you have to add Blackhawks markup on the STC and conversion and I can't see this being a cent under $2 million. Isn't it just cheaper to sell the 700 and buy a used 850 instead?

But maybe Blackhawk gets OEM pricing that's competitive? Seems to be P&W's MO.

My suspicion is that this conversion makes a good deal of sense if you are facing overhaul and want a faster plane but love your airframe. Otherwise, probably not sensible.

The TBM and Piaggio engines overhaul for between $450-950k each depending on condition and who does the work, though I gather there is a program for the engine that can guarantee like $650k. Of course, there is also ESP Gold where it's on P&W (other than the engine payments).

The TBM is impossible to beat if you you want to get in and out of short fields, want thrust reverse for contaminated runways, yet travel long distances quickly. Amazing capabilities, reliable, simple. If you're willing to use longer runways, you gain a lot of options.

I traded in my TBM or a Piaggio and I love both planes. The Piaggio is an awesome cruiser but it requires another 1000' - 1500' of runway vs the TBM.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 Jul 2024, 17:53

There are many ohc shops looking for cores or mod time

GB

There was a great presentation at Oshkosh on this kit

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2024, 22:18

Username Protected wrote:

Why would anyone do this when they could buy a Citation 501?

A bit of thread drift, but I've been looking closely at TBM vs. 501SP, and I think the TBM makes more sense for me because:

Fits in a 48' T-hangar
Simpler operation / easier to maintain proficiency flying < 75 hrs / year.
I don't have time to closely manage maintenance, and feels like it's harder to get jerked around with the TBM
I'm based at KHPN and Columbia at KGON is renowned for TBM mx; not sure where to go for a 501

Happy to have my mind changed though!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2024, 22:47

Username Protected wrote:

Why would anyone do this when they could buy a Citation 501?

A bit of thread drift, but I've been looking closely at TBM vs. 501SP, and I think the TBM makes more sense for me because:

Fits in a 48' T-hangar
Simpler operation / easier to maintain proficiency flying < 75 hrs / year.
I don't have time to closely manage maintenance, and feels like it's harder to get jerked around with the TBM
I'm based at KHPN and Columbia at KGON is renowned for TBM mx; not sure where to go for a 501

Happy to have my mind changed though!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Dec 2024, 19:37

A little late to the party but thought I'd answer/confirm a few items.

"850 mode"
We plan to have a switch like on 850, that changes the torque limit in climb and cruise to take advantage of the superior performance at altitude of the -66D. There is no change in takeoff performance with this upgrade but as mentioned the TBM is already a strong short field aircraft.

Cowl upgrade
I know American Aviation is working on a cowl mod but is not yet certified. I am not sure of their time table.

Program update
We are on track to receive our STC in Q2 of next year and have sold out of our very limited 2025 delivery positions.

For those interested, one of the folks that has a deposit down shared his thoughts on why he decided to invest in the upgrade: https://www.blackhawk.aero/meet-justin- ... -aircraft/

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Dec 2024, 12:01

I think the key is improving the cowling shape, similar to the 900 series, plus the engine upgrade. If I'm not mistaken, the cowling is the key to the 900's performance.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Dec 2024, 12:05

Too bad the fadec was not added

The five blade prop went up in price

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Dec 2024, 13:30

Username Protected wrote:

I think the key is improving the cowling shape, similar to the 900 series, plus the engine upgrade. If I'm not mistaken, the cowling is the key to the 900's performance.

American Aviation had the new TBM700/850 cowl at their NBAA booth this year. They are close.

TBM 700 Engine Upgrade STC by Blackhawk