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 Post subject: Re: Twin Cessna Prebuy
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2017, 16:20 
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Depends on the state. Call AOPA legal, and if you're not subscribed to their service, it's the best $100 you'll spend. Especially if buying.

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 Post subject: Re: Twin Cessna Prebuy
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2017, 20:51 
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Garrett-

I hope this inspection works out for you. I've followed a lot of your posts regarding your hunt for an aircraft... hopefully that search is coming to an end!!!

:cross:

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 Post subject: Re: Twin Cessna Prebuy
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2017, 20:51 
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AZ or SD where we are registered only collects on the buyer side.

Who is your mechanic in AZ, I have a 310R that bounces between P19 and KRAP and would love to know a knowledgeable twin cessna guy down here.


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 Post subject: Re: Twin Cessna Prebuy
PostPosted: 15 Jul 2017, 22:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
On another note, I was told that if it's a private sale between two individuals, the state the airplane is in won't collect sales tax from the buyer. Is this true?

The tax websites are so ambiguous, I feel like anyone could be right depending how they argue it.


Not necessarily true. Some states have casual sale exemptions and each one that does has a different definition of what a casual sale is and is not. That said, if the plane is ultimately going to FL and live there then you will most likely be required to pay use tax there. I highly suggest seeking professional counsel in this area from an aviation sales tax professional with experience in your home state as well as the state where the deal will close.

-Neal

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 Post subject: Re: Twin Cessna Prebuy
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 05:52 
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I've bought a few airplanes in various states that then lived with me in Florida. I paid Florida sales tax on them.

The definitive answer is as Neal says above.

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 Post subject: Re: Twin Cessna Prebuy
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 11:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
On another note, I was told that if it's a private sale between two individuals, the state the airplane is in won't collect sales tax from the buyer. Is this true?

The tax websites are so ambiguous, I feel like anyone could be right depending how they argue it.


Not necessarily true. Some states have casual sale exemptions and each one that does has a different definition of what a casual sale is and is not. That said, if the plane is ultimately going to FL and live there then you will most likely be required to pay use tax there. I highly suggest seeking professional counsel in this area from an aviation sales tax professional with experience in your home state as well as the state where the deal will close.

-Neal


I just reread my post and I don't think I explained well. My home state will collect a use tax and that's fine. But the state the airplane has lived in and is being bought from (Va.) won't hit me with a sales tax as long as I fly it away immediately after closing.

I'll call my accountant Monday to make sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Twin Cessna Prebuy
PostPosted: 19 Jul 2017, 07:54 
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Username Protected wrote:
I just reread my post and I don't think I explained well. My home state will collect a use tax and that's fine. But the state the airplane has lived in and is being bought from (Va.) won't hit me with a sales tax as long as I fly it away immediately after closing.

I'll call my accountant Monday to make sure.


I'll preface this response by stating (as I always have) that I am not an aircraft sales/use tax expert so these comments are worth the price you paid for them.

If you are doing the pre-purchase evaluation in Virginia, I strongly suggest that you move the aircraft to another state for the actual closing (which is defined as the filing of FAA documents and transfer of all funds from buyer to sell). Virginia does not have a casual/isolated sales tax exemption nor do they have a "fly-away" (non-resident) exemption. In other words, if you close in Virginia (no matter quickly you move the plane to FL), you will be liable for Virginia sales tax.

I would have the seller move the plane to New Jersey, New York, or South Carolina for the closing (and obviously you would be on the hook for all expenses associated with that move and getting him back home). NJ has both a casual sale exemption as well as a fly-away exemption. NY has no sales tax for aircraft. And SC has a $300 cap on sales tax for aircraft.

Given that you are ultimately bringing the plane to FL I would have the seller fly the plane to SC for the closing since it is on the way home and $300 isn't that much money in the scheme of things. You will want to fully document that the aircraft was in SC at the time of closing using fuel receipts, perhaps a notarized affidavit stating the plane was in SC at the time of closing, IFR flight plan with corroborating flightaware records, etc.

Also, I wouldn't rely on your accountant for this issue unless they have extensive aircraft sales/use tax experience. There are people and firms that specialize in this issue so I suggest you call one of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Twin Cessna Prebuy
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2017, 12:17 
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Username Protected wrote:
I just reread my post and I don't think I explained well. My home state will collect a use tax and that's fine. But the state the airplane has lived in and is being bought from (Va.) won't hit me with a sales tax as long as I fly it away immediately after closing.

I'll call my accountant Monday to make sure.


I'll preface this response by stating (as I always have) that I am not an aircraft sales/use tax expert so these comments are worth the price you paid for them.

If you are doing the pre-purchase evaluation in Virginia, I strongly suggest that you move the aircraft to another state for the actual closing (which is defined as the filing of FAA documents and transfer of all funds from buyer to sell). Virginia does not have a casual/isolated sales tax exemption nor do they have a "fly-away" (non-resident) exemption. In other words, if you close in Virginia (no matter quickly you move the plane to FL), you will be liable for Virginia sales tax.

I would have the seller move the plane to New Jersey, New York, or South Carolina for the closing (and obviously you would be on the hook for all expenses associated with that move and getting him back home). NJ has both a casual sale exemption as well as a fly-away exemption. NY has no sales tax for aircraft. And SC has a $300 cap on sales tax for aircraft.

Given that you are ultimately bringing the plane to FL I would have the seller fly the plane to SC for the closing since it is on the way home and $300 isn't that much money in the scheme of things. You will want to fully document that the aircraft was in SC at the time of closing using fuel receipts, perhaps a notarized affidavit stating the plane was in SC at the time of closing, IFR flight plan with corroborating flightaware records, etc.

Also, I wouldn't rely on your accountant for this issue unless they have extensive aircraft sales/use tax experience. There are people and firms that specialize in this issue so I suggest you call one of them.


Neal is exactly right! And these states wait months, even years to come after you. It's expensive to defend it even if you win. It's also a pain. Always close in a fly-away state.

The guys at Advocate are good, there's also Rick Galvin at http://flywealthserve.com/ Rick is a Beechtalker.
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 Post subject: Re: Twin Cessna Prebuy
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2017, 14:27 
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Username Protected wrote:
If you are doing the pre-purchase evaluation in Virginia, I strongly suggest that you move the aircraft to another state for the actual closing (which is defined as the filing of FAA documents and transfer of all funds from buyer to sell).


I recall watching a documentary about Boeing and they said they flew the plane out to sea to actually sign the paperwork.

Couldn't you do that in this case? Fly out 12 miles from the coast and "sell" the plane there? No states should be able to claim anything on you at that point.

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Twin Cessna Prebuy
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2017, 14:55 
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Username Protected wrote:

I'll preface this response by stating (as I always have) that I am not an aircraft sales/use tax expert so these comments are worth the price you paid for them.

If you are doing the pre-purchase evaluation in Virginia, I strongly suggest that you move the aircraft to another state for the actual closing (which is defined as the filing of FAA documents and transfer of all funds from buyer to sell). Virginia does not have a casual/isolated sales tax exemption nor do they have a "fly-away" (non-resident) exemption. In other words, if you close in Virginia (no matter quickly you move the plane to FL), you will be liable for Virginia sales tax.

I would have the seller move the plane to New Jersey, New York, or South Carolina for the closing (and obviously you would be on the hook for all expenses associated with that move and getting him back home). NJ has both a casual sale exemption as well as a fly-away exemption. NY has no sales tax for aircraft. And SC has a $300 cap on sales tax for aircraft.

Given that you are ultimately bringing the plane to FL I would have the seller fly the plane to SC for the closing since it is on the way home and $300 isn't that much money in the scheme of things. You will want to fully document that the aircraft was in SC at the time of closing using fuel receipts, perhaps a notarized affidavit stating the plane was in SC at the time of closing, IFR flight plan with corroborating flightaware records, etc.

Also, I wouldn't rely on your accountant for this issue unless they have extensive aircraft sales/use tax experience. There are people and firms that specialize in this issue so I suggest you call one of them.



It appears VA doesn't hit you with a tax as long as the aircraft leaves VA in 60 days or less.

"Aircraft purchased in Virginia and subsequently moved out of Virginia in 60 days or less are not required to be licensed in Virginia and therefore are not liable for the tax"

From:
https://www.tax.virginia.gov/aircraft-and-watercraft


So, it would appear I'll be ok. :pray:


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 Post subject: Re: Twin Cessna Prebuy
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2017, 14:56 
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Username Protected wrote:
If you are doing the pre-purchase evaluation in Virginia, I strongly suggest that you move the aircraft to another state for the actual closing (which is defined as the filing of FAA documents and transfer of all funds from buyer to sell).


I recall watching a documentary about Boeing and they said they flew the plane out to sea to actually sign the paperwork.

Couldn't you do that in this case? Fly out 12 miles from the coast and "sell" the plane there? No states should be able to claim anything on you at that point.

Robert



Heard about boats doing that as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Twin Cessna Prebuy
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2017, 15:13 
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Username Protected wrote:
From:
https://www.tax.virginia.gov/aircraft-and-watercraft

So, it would appear I'll be ok. :pray:


That's great news! The last time I tried to close a deal in Virginia the buyer's aviation tax attorney made us move the plane out of state and even sent us the relevant language showing there wasn't a fly-away exemption. It appears they were either wrong or the regulation has changed since then so that is awesome. I wish more states would take this sort of approach because it would bring them more aviation business and make transactions go much smoother.

Glad this will work out for you and best of luck with the prebuy!

-Neal

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 Post subject: Re: Twin Cessna Prebuy
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2017, 15:16 
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Username Protected wrote:

That's great news! The last time I tried to close a deal in Virginia the buyer's aviation tax attorney made us move the plane out of state and even sent us the relevant language showing there wasn't a fly-away exemption. It appears they were either wrong or the regulation has changed since then so that is awesome. I wish more states would take this sort of approach because it would bring them more aviation business and make transactions go much smoother.

Glad this will work out for you and best of luck with the prebuy!

-Neal



The weird thing is, on all other aviation tax websites it never said it was a good state. Recommending TN, SC, etc. Tax rules move so fast that I'll bet it's a year-by-year thing. :bang:

I'm hoping it works out as well. Been getting itchy. :grr:


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